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The Abyss Guide now has a 4-page Character Sheet, and 6 pages of add-ons!

After a temporary hiatus, the Grey Jackal is back in action!


 

 CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics

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Gattison
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PostSubject: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 5:25 am

So I'm doing one of my regular scans through the chapters to see if everything still looks good, and the following ritual caught my eye. Valis originally posted this, but I gave it a run-through, because I don't think he'd mind, and I came to one part that I sort of disagree with.

The parts I would like to discuss are in RED.

Releasing the Shadow of the Beast:
So, yeah, it's a long one, but after re-reading this, I've decided I really, really like this idea, but I have one thing to say.

The Beast is bad, when it takes control, the vampire regrets stuff later. The Shadow (of a Wraith) is worse, as it actively tries to subvert the goals of the ghost. Because of this, I think that the side-effect of this ritual should involve the great risk involved when the Mystic LOSES control of the Shadow Beast. I think that little motherfucker just basically run amok, but in a sadistic and cunning way that targets ONLY the Shadow beast's "sire"-vampire. Like, a "free" Shadow Beast does not start randomly destroying stuff (that's what a free Hungry Shade does, iirc), instead it immediately sets about trying to oppose the vampire that created them in every way possible. Basically if you mess up on this ritual, you not only lose the ability to spend and use WP, but also lose your shadow AND gain the Flaw: Enemy (your own shadow), all until you can beat it up in the Astral Plain (or Underworld, if you can catch it there instead) and then win a Willpower roll against it and make it return. You shouldn't be able to do this in the physical plane because the ritual states that in the real world a Shadow Beast is immaterial.

In addition, we already have rituals that impart a Derangement on the user if they screw up, so this helps mix things up a bit, for some variety in your punishments. =)

So, that's my two cents, anybody agree or disagree?

EDIT: I also want to suggest a Level of Four for this ritual as well.
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Anda

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSun Oct 21, 2012 12:34 am

Like your suggestions alot Joshua! The own-shadow-enemy is really cool story hook. I'm not really good with the mathematics so I dunno if level 4 is appropriate or not, I'll trust your judgement on the matter.

Sorry for not answering earlier, been having a inflammation in my shoulder and neck, so I haven't been able to sit by the computer during a longer time without it hurting. Suspect
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Gattison
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSun Oct 21, 2012 1:28 am

sorry to hear about your shoulder/neck injury, hope you feel better, soon. *insert "don't masturbate so hard" joke (dedicated to dan lanman) here. Phallic emoticon for effect* ---> elephant

Again, glad you like the idea. =) I'm gonna shoot valis an email soon to see if he's still busy soon, and hopefully I can get some feedback from him on that then, too.

As for the Ritual's level, eh, idk. I'll be honest and say that I'm trying to fill the level four ritual hole. This ritual gives access to a lot of new stuff if not botched though--it can give characters access to the Umbra AND the Underworld. This level might even be level five, along the lines of Auspex level 5, Astral whatever, but I would think the drastic Side-Effect could maybe justify us dropping it down to level 4.
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Gattison
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PostSubject: Black Gas (Revised)   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 7:53 pm

Okay, I found this in the Combo-Disc section for some reason, but as I reread, I felt like this would be an appropriate use for this idea.

It is Andasamarino's previous suggested idea for "Black Gas." I added a Brazilian origin and a Side-Effect. What you think, Anda? I also suggested a level of 3.

Spoiler:
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Anda

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeThu Nov 08, 2012 11:21 pm

I think you have done a great job with it Gattison, I like it alot! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2012 2:29 am

What would be a good Side-Effect for a ritual that puts out flames?

This is for the Thaumaturgy ritual Extinguish (Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy, p. 92) redesigned for Abyss mystic use. It's a Level 2 ritual that can extinguish flames up to the size of a bonfire, possibly even multiple times per night.

BTW, thanks Anda, glad you approve!
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Anda

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2012 2:35 am

Hmm... side effect is something they get if they fail right? What about something that increases the vampire´s fear of fire, maybe something that increases the difficulty on rötschreck-rolls or possibly something similar to the Setite Clan flaw? Maybe the vampire has a problem with being in lid-up places for too long and isn´t really comfortable unless he is in darkness... I would go with something like that. Dunno if you think it´s suiting though?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2012 5:54 pm

I like the idea about the aversion to fire (greater than usual for a vampire of course). That's the one I'll use, thanks. =)
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeFri Nov 16, 2012 1:29 am

New to the Abyssal Rituals list (finally getting around to extending the fluff on the remainder of our rituals).

Spoiler:
EDIT: Two more
Spoiler:

Okay now let's talk about this:
Directing Ahriman's Lance
Level Four Ritual – (Directing Ahriman's Lance, Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy, p. 125)
(such a calling to the god of darkness could not be ignored by Abyss mystic)
Does anybody know what this does? I looked it up and I'm not sure if it seems appropriate or not as an Abyss Mysticism thing... I mean, I could be convinced, and have some theories of my own, but I'm not seeing anything obvious here, to be honest. Thoughts?

Maybe I could try an angle where this ritual was definitely developed by the ashipu first, and then adapted to Abyss-ism because of the power of the name it invokes?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSat Dec 01, 2012 6:05 pm

Well, I figured out something for Ahriman's Embrace, but I need a suggestion for a Side-Effect? Or should this be one of the rare ones without a side-effect, since killing serves the Abyss' purpose so closely?

Spoiler:
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeTue Dec 04, 2012 2:48 pm

Hmm, since the ritual involves carving on the heart I'm thinking that maybe the side effect could be something like that the abyss mystic gets a black permanent scar on his heart and the strength it takes to stake him from here on demands a much lower strength roll. Just an idea...
I dunno, what you think about that?
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valismedsen

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeMon Dec 17, 2012 2:02 pm

I know Ahriman's Lance does not mention it (its mechanics are a little wonky anyway), but usually difficulties shouldn't get lower than 4. I think since its being revised, it's worth mentioning this.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2012 5:41 pm

Done, ty.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 11:48 pm

We have a new supporter on the White-Wolf-forum, and he comes with a suggestion. It's an interesting idea, and it might be somewhat appropriate, but before I get his hopes up by telling him to go ahead and write it up, I thought I'd run the idea past the squad first, and get your initial reactions.

So, click the link above, read his short little idea and respond. =)
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Anda

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeFri Dec 28, 2012 6:15 am

I'll pass this one on to the others to deside since I'm really crap with rituals and what works and what doesn't. But I like what you answered, it is much easier to judge when you see a ritual that is done. I just think it's awesome that people still keeps up with our product Smile
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeFri Jan 04, 2013 5:34 pm

And here is the result, for our perusal.

Followed by the direct quote, for our convenience:

Matt Avery @ forums.white-wolf.com wrote:
All right so I really just wanted to get this done tonight since I'm leaving town for a few weeks and probably won't have time to get back to it for awhile. Hopefully you all can review and critique it in the mean time and decide if you feel it's worth considering for inclusion. Been fiddling with it daily for the last week and it's been through several iterations as I was writing it up but this is the one I'm happiest with for now.

Claiming the Inheritance of Erebos
Spoiler:
I know it still needs a lot of cleaning up and has a couple major holes. Specifically I don't have any system for the Abyssal possession, but am hoping you guys may already have something like that developed or know of something similar that's already out there which could be readily adapted. Became inspired by the story of that one character who was a powerful mystic and then gave it all up for the Road of Heaven but still felt the Abyss was trying to possess him or use him to enter this world or something.

I have to admit... I kinda like it. It's dangerous, risky, leads to some appropriate drawbacks and has a sufficient reward for someone focused on Abyss Mysticism. Also could tie into my idea about a Merit that does something similar.
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Anda

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSat Jan 05, 2013 2:35 pm

I really like it, it's very suiting! He should totally do more rituals if he's interested!
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valismedsen

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSat Jan 05, 2013 11:58 pm

Agreed. Also, we should ask if there's something we never got around to finishing that he's like to take a shot at.

(Gospel of Laodice, I'm looking at you...)
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2013 4:48 am

valismedsen wrote:
Agreed. Also, we should ask if there's something we never got around to finishing that he's like to take a shot at.

(Gospel of Laodice, I'm looking at you...)
Glad you guys liked it and I'd be willing to try and help out with anything else, but as I'm out of town doing a training course for work for a few weeks I probably won't be much help for awhile. And regarding the Gospel of Laodice, I'm willing to give it a look, but honestly have no idea what is or what you're looking for on it. I have read through most of the stuff on the forum here now and remember it being mentioned but would need some more details to go off of and see if I can get inspired to come up with anything worth while. Been a long while since I've actually played VtM and even though I've worked on some pretty ambitious projects like this before I've never seen people (myself included) stick with them long enough to come to fruition. What you all have got going on this is way more quality and dedication than I've seen before and I'm really impressed and would love to be able to be a part of it, even though I am coming so late to the party.

Gattitson, I really like your Abyssal Affinity merit and if you work out details on that it could simplify some of the effect description on the Inheritance ritual as well, by just having them gain that merit in addition to the Obtenebration bonus. Also could probably stand to remove the 50% failure for embrace and add 50% chance to pass that merit onto their childer instead. The more I think about it the draw backs I threw on the ritual, even though I feel they're thematic, are mechanically probably too harsh. Considering it basically does the same as the 4th In Clan merit but is extremely risky to pull off AND has a Path requirement to maintain AND makes your blood weaker AND cuts back on two disciplines. I still like the general blood weakness stuff for bonds and ghouls, but probably would work fine with only reducing one In clan to 6x cost. Could suggest it be one that is less "Abyssal" like I'd see Animalism, Presence, Vicissitude, Protean, Valeran, even Dementation and Chimerstry maybe being less abyss-like than say Dominate, Potence, Fortitude, Obfuscate, and perhaps Daimonion. Like the Path this would be at storyteller's discretion to work out with the player.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2013 3:00 am

Okay, about the gospel: it's just some quotes taken from the book Road of Heaven, supposedly from a book that is similar to the Book of Nod in the setting (it was only ever mentioned in Road of Heaven).

When we were debating about a Road of the Abyss I remembered the author of Road of Heaven came up with this cool concept about the "thrice darkness" of Cainite existence (vampires being born to darkness when embraced, the darkness of the womb of the mortal birth, and the darkness from where creation sprang). This is detailed in the Gospel of Laodice, which is sparsely quotes in the aforementioned book.

My connection with the Road of the Abyss was that perhaps the Road of Heaven (and its original non-christian precursor, the Road of Light) believe that vampires are creatures of darkness chosen to be embraced. Christian influence added the idea of 'atonement for sins' as a meaning for the Embrace, but supposedly there could be a original Road of Light that was more close to the ideal of vampires as agents of darkness without much redemption.

I tried to connect this idea with the origin of Obtenebration myths in Persian culture, guessing that there could have been a Road of Darkness, a negative of the Road of Light connected to Ahriman and other gods of darkness.

It all got very complicated as I tried to write it from the point of view of Byrsa, trying to explain all this while also arguing that there was something infernal inherent to the Obtenebration.

I guess I got trapped in my own ideas, LOL!!!
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2013 9:15 am

So the write up on Gospel of Laodice would go under the grimoire section then. Just a brief description of the book and what possible benefits or other effects it might have for one who read and applied it?

I don't have the book Road of Heaven, but if you could provide me with the relevant quotes from it I'm willing to mull it over and see what I can come up with. Did they actually make a separate book for each Road or was it just in the Road of Heaven section of Chaining the beast? Either way I never had any of them, so haven't seen it myself.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2013 10:12 am

All the quotes from the Road of Heaven are in the Guide.

I haven't thought about putting it in the grimoire section... but that's a brilliant idea!

I'll try to trim the text to fit it in there. That will help me with the creativity problems, perhaps.

Edit:

I believe it can be trimmed down to this:

The Gospel of Laodice
The Gospel of Laodice is a medieval theological counterpart to the Book of Nod. It was a widely spread text among followers of the Path of Heaven, and translations of the Gospel were available to most Faithful, as the followers of the path were known. The Gospel is a retelling of the origins of the world, the story of Caine and that of his descendants, called in the text Noddists (differently from followers of the Path of Caine, more akin to how the Sabbat nowadays call vampires Cainites). This retelling has its focus on the notion of the threefold darkness. This would be the thrice auspice of darkness upon any Cainite: once from a primeval darkness from which the earth arose, secondly, the darkness of the womb where humanity is gestated, and thirdly, the darkness of eternal night that comes with the Embrace. The Path of Heaven had a great influence over the Lasombra Clan during the Dark Ages, and commentaries and annotations of Abyss Mystics on the Gospel of Laodice offer many theological and occult insights into the study of Abyss Mysticism.


Gattison and everybody: do you guys feel like the quotes are important to the guide? Or would you remove them?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2013 2:08 pm

Here it is directly from the Abyss Guide.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
This was originally written by valismedsen, and so far is all that we have in the Guide about this topic.

BTW, welcome to the party, Mr. Matt Avery, good have another new face with us. =)
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeTue Jan 08, 2013 2:29 am

Wow, I'm not sure what more I could do than that write up. It seems pretty thorough. Was just what valismeden put in the last post and the "pages" of quotes the original stuff from the book? What more are you looking for?

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics Icon_minitimeTue Jan 08, 2013 3:20 am

This one is debatable. We're feeling mixed on it. The first time I read it it was over my head, lol, so I withheld any opinions. Then I re-read it and I questioned its pertinence to the topic of Abyss Mysticism. Then I re-read it a third time and decided I liked it, i got it, and it's acceptable.

Then everybody jumped on my let's-question-this-one-particualr-entry bandwagon and I don't know what the f--- is HAPPENING! lol

Just kidding. =)

Seriously, I now see this entry as a tool to use if one wants to explore alternate interpretations of the word "dark." We know that the darkness of the Abyss is connected to the darkness in people's minds... what other forms of darkness could there be, and is it possible they would also fall under the Umbrella of TRUE darkness, aka the Abyss? Christianity often identifies their religion with light, could this perhaps create a polar opposite that now falls under the realm of influence of the Abyss? I think it's subtle, but the potential is there, especially when considering the Storytelling opportunities now to involve infernalists like the Angellis Ater, or the Sabbat Inquisition, which seldom, if ever, sees the difference between Infernalism and Abyss Mysticism already.

So I say with three votes for, one, maybe two votes in question of, and like a dozen abstaining... I say the motion re-passes and stays in the book.

Next on the agenda: yes, the pages were taken directly from the PDF file we have of the book. No, vali's previous post seems to be a super-duper-truncated version of what he previously submitted.

I am not looking for anything more out of the entry concerning the Gospel of Laodice, but that's me. I guess you could play up the darkness angle a bit but whatever, I think just by placing this write-up in an Abyssal Guide will infer enough to get the creative ST to start connecting Abyssal and unholy darknesses.

What I would really like to draw your creative attention to, Mr. Avery, is this link for the Checklist we have of what still needs work. I will make you Supreme Ultimate Commander and give you absolute authority over EVERY other member of this group (except me, of course) if you be the one to figure something out for the section on Paths of Moralities related to the Abyss. =)

And finally, speaking of the Guide again, I guess we might as well let you peek at the book itself and you can see just exactly what needs work and what doesn't. I'll need your email address, because it isn't hosted anywhere yet, so you can PM me or whatever you want, if interested in that.

EDIT:
Matt Avery wrote:
...I'm really impressed and would love to be able to be a part of it, even though I am coming so late to the party.

Gattitson, I really like your Abyssal Affinity merit and if you work out details on that it could simplify some of the effect description on the Inheritance ritual as well, by just having them gain that merit in addition to the Obtenebration bonus. Also could probably stand to remove the 50% failure for embrace and add 50% chance to pass that merit onto their childer instead. The more I think about it the draw backs I threw on the ritual, even though I feel they're thematic, are mechanically probably too harsh. Considering it basically does the same as the 4th In Clan merit but is extremely risky to pull off AND has a Path requirement to maintain AND makes your blood weaker AND cuts back on two disciplines. I still like the general blood weakness stuff for bonds and ghouls, but probably would work fine with only reducing one In clan to 6x cost. Could suggest it be one that is less "Abyssal" like I'd see Animalism, Presence, Vicissitude, Protean, Valeran, even Dementation and Chimerstry maybe being less abyss-like than say Dominate, Potence, Fortitude, Obfuscate, and perhaps Daimonion. Like the Path this would be at storyteller's discretion to work out with the player.

Better late than never, as they say. As for the ritual, I agree the drawbacks got a little harsh the more they stacked, but I really like the counterbalance of loss of affinity for non-Obtenebration Disciplines, I think that one definitely needs to remain. I also like the secret weakness of not being able to Blood Bond or ghoul as normal, but needing an extra night/drink, another really good idea. I think if you drop the "50% failure to Embrace" as suggested, and also drop the rating requirement for Path to something low, like 3, 4 or 5, so it's accessible, but out of reach to Abyss mystic-newbies (so a new char can't just switch Paths just to get this ritual), then it starts to look good. Also, I think that maybe the bonus gained by this ritual should simply BE the benefits gained by the Abyssal Affinity Merit.

The one difference I would suggest is that with the Merit there's a 50% chance of passing it on to Childer, but with the Ritual, it is NOT. I say this because the Merit I would describe as mostly a "pureblood" bloodline, "chosen by the Abyss" sort of thing, while with the ritual the caster is pretty much asking a favor of the Abyss, which never chose them to be special, so maybe the Abyss doesn't want it's essence being diluted by passing through unworthy childer of a Mystic who casts this ritual. It'd be one of the side-effects. Thoughts?
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