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The Abyss Guide now has a 4-page Character Sheet, and 6 pages of add-ons!

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 CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics

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Gattison
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PostSubject: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 5:25 am

First topic message reminder :

So I'm doing one of my regular scans through the chapters to see if everything still looks good, and the following ritual caught my eye. Valis originally posted this, but I gave it a run-through, because I don't think he'd mind, and I came to one part that I sort of disagree with.

The parts I would like to discuss are in RED.

Releasing the Shadow of the Beast:
 
So, yeah, it's a long one, but after re-reading this, I've decided I really, really like this idea, but I have one thing to say.

The Beast is bad, when it takes control, the vampire regrets stuff later. The Shadow (of a Wraith) is worse, as it actively tries to subvert the goals of the ghost. Because of this, I think that the side-effect of this ritual should involve the great risk involved when the Mystic LOSES control of the Shadow Beast. I think that little motherfucker just basically run amok, but in a sadistic and cunning way that targets ONLY the Shadow beast's "sire"-vampire. Like, a "free" Shadow Beast does not start randomly destroying stuff (that's what a free Hungry Shade does, iirc), instead it immediately sets about trying to oppose the vampire that created them in every way possible. Basically if you mess up on this ritual, you not only lose the ability to spend and use WP, but also lose your shadow AND gain the Flaw: Enemy (your own shadow), all until you can beat it up in the Astral Plain (or Underworld, if you can catch it there instead) and then win a Willpower roll against it and make it return. You shouldn't be able to do this in the physical plane because the ritual states that in the real world a Shadow Beast is immaterial.

In addition, we already have rituals that impart a Derangement on the user if they screw up, so this helps mix things up a bit, for some variety in your punishments. =)

So, that's my two cents, anybody agree or disagree?

EDIT: I also want to suggest a Level of Four for this ritual as well.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jan 08, 2013 3:20 am

This one is debatable. We're feeling mixed on it. The first time I read it it was over my head, lol, so I withheld any opinions. Then I re-read it and I questioned its pertinence to the topic of Abyss Mysticism. Then I re-read it a third time and decided I liked it, i got it, and it's acceptable.

Then everybody jumped on my let's-question-this-one-particualr-entry bandwagon and I don't know what the f--- is HAPPENING! lol

Just kidding. =)

Seriously, I now see this entry as a tool to use if one wants to explore alternate interpretations of the word "dark." We know that the darkness of the Abyss is connected to the darkness in people's minds... what other forms of darkness could there be, and is it possible they would also fall under the Umbrella of TRUE darkness, aka the Abyss? Christianity often identifies their religion with light, could this perhaps create a polar opposite that now falls under the realm of influence of the Abyss? I think it's subtle, but the potential is there, especially when considering the Storytelling opportunities now to involve infernalists like the Angellis Ater, or the Sabbat Inquisition, which seldom, if ever, sees the difference between Infernalism and Abyss Mysticism already.

So I say with three votes for, one, maybe two votes in question of, and like a dozen abstaining... I say the motion re-passes and stays in the book.

Next on the agenda: yes, the pages were taken directly from the PDF file we have of the book. No, vali's previous post seems to be a super-duper-truncated version of what he previously submitted.

I am not looking for anything more out of the entry concerning the Gospel of Laodice, but that's me. I guess you could play up the darkness angle a bit but whatever, I think just by placing this write-up in an Abyssal Guide will infer enough to get the creative ST to start connecting Abyssal and unholy darknesses.

What I would really like to draw your creative attention to, Mr. Avery, is this link for the Checklist we have of what still needs work. I will make you Supreme Ultimate Commander and give you absolute authority over EVERY other member of this group (except me, of course) if you be the one to figure something out for the section on Paths of Moralities related to the Abyss. =)

And finally, speaking of the Guide again, I guess we might as well let you peek at the book itself and you can see just exactly what needs work and what doesn't. I'll need your email address, because it isn't hosted anywhere yet, so you can PM me or whatever you want, if interested in that.

EDIT:
Matt Avery wrote:
...I'm really impressed and would love to be able to be a part of it, even though I am coming so late to the party.

Gattitson, I really like your Abyssal Affinity merit and if you work out details on that it could simplify some of the effect description on the Inheritance ritual as well, by just having them gain that merit in addition to the Obtenebration bonus. Also could probably stand to remove the 50% failure for embrace and add 50% chance to pass that merit onto their childer instead. The more I think about it the draw backs I threw on the ritual, even though I feel they're thematic, are mechanically probably too harsh. Considering it basically does the same as the 4th In Clan merit but is extremely risky to pull off AND has a Path requirement to maintain AND makes your blood weaker AND cuts back on two disciplines. I still like the general blood weakness stuff for bonds and ghouls, but probably would work fine with only reducing one In clan to 6x cost. Could suggest it be one that is less "Abyssal" like I'd see Animalism, Presence, Vicissitude, Protean, Valeran, even Dementation and Chimerstry maybe being less abyss-like than say Dominate, Potence, Fortitude, Obfuscate, and perhaps Daimonion. Like the Path this would be at storyteller's discretion to work out with the player.

Better late than never, as they say. As for the ritual, I agree the drawbacks got a little harsh the more they stacked, but I really like the counterbalance of loss of affinity for non-Obtenebration Disciplines, I think that one definitely needs to remain. I also like the secret weakness of not being able to Blood Bond or ghoul as normal, but needing an extra night/drink, another really good idea. I think if you drop the "50% failure to Embrace" as suggested, and also drop the rating requirement for Path to something low, like 3, 4 or 5, so it's accessible, but out of reach to Abyss mystic-newbies (so a new char can't just switch Paths just to get this ritual), then it starts to look good. Also, I think that maybe the bonus gained by this ritual should simply BE the benefits gained by the Abyssal Affinity Merit.

The one difference I would suggest is that with the Merit there's a 50% chance of passing it on to Childer, but with the Ritual, it is NOT. I say this because the Merit I would describe as mostly a "pureblood" bloodline, "chosen by the Abyss" sort of thing, while with the ritual the caster is pretty much asking a favor of the Abyss, which never chose them to be special, so maybe the Abyss doesn't want it's essence being diluted by passing through unworthy childer of a Mystic who casts this ritual. It'd be one of the side-effects. Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2013 5:27 pm

Gattison, I'm glad that the original version of the Gospel of Laodice was voted to stay.

Scrap the trimmed paragraph I posted, then.

I guess you could add your own thoughts on the section, however, on a sidebar.

I think this you wrote is great (I did a little edit on it):

The Gospel of Laodoce is a tool to use if one wants to explore alternate interpretations of the word "dark." The darkness of the Abyss is connected to the darkness in people's minds and spiritual darkness. But what other forms of darkness could there be, and is it possible they would also fall under the umbrella of TRUE darkness, aka the Abyss? Christianity often identifies their religion with Light, could this perhaps create a polar opposite that now falls under the realm of influence of the Abyss? It is a subtle distinction, perhaps semantics, but the potential is there, especially when considering the Storytelling opportunities to involve Infernalists like the Angellis Ater, or the Sabbat Inquisition, which seldom, if ever, sees the difference between Infernalism and Abyss Mysticism already.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jan 18, 2013 3:24 pm

We should have had this discussion in the Chapter 1 thread... we're so chaotic neutral. =|

=)
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PostSubject: Sorry to keep picking on Bruno's ritual, but...   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 06, 2014 4:05 am

I don't mean to pick on Bruno's ritual, but I added his Abyssal hunter to the Bestiary, and happened to compare it to the Hungry shade, and it looks to me as if the Abyssal Hunter is a bit weak for a level 4 ritual.  I gone ahead and suggested some stats for the Abyssal hunter to make it a bit more formidable.  Also, I think maybe we should consider allowing Hunters to have Mental traits, but not Social ones.  The ritual states that the Hunters lie in wait until an enemy is open to attack, and I feel not having any mental traits reflects this poorly.  thoughts?
Abyssal Hunter (Artume's Child, Spawn of Rhollor):
 
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics   CHAPTER 2 - Abyss Mysticism: Black Magics - Page 2 Icon_minitime

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