Darkness penalty, Blind Fighting & Perception Related Powers

Darkness related penalties

Since Obtenebration is based on the idea of shadow & the absence of light, & considering the few rules on Darkness penalties inside the V20, I feel it would be interesting, inside a guide talking about Abyssal Mysticism, to provide a baseline in order to deal with Darkness and levels of Shadows.

Imho 4 things need to be consider: Perception modifiers/ actions modifiers/ powers modifiers (Auspex, Obtenebration…)/ Skills modifiers (Blind Fighting Skill & Awareness)
I also want to emphasis on the need to reexamine the blind fighting skill since it no longer has any relation with the very few rules provided in V20: according to the text taking 2 levels in this Skill would be enough to have no penalty at all in darkness… And it was already broken at the time it was written.

The points we know:

(1) In total darkness there is a +2 diff to all actions as per the blind fighting rules V20 p.274
(2) In the Shroud of Night (Obtenebration) of the the Vampire Revised & the Vampire D.A. there is also a -5 dices penalty to perception.
(3) When blinded you cannot make any ranged attack except with Auspex heightened Sens, Tongue of the Wasp or the blind fighting skill. Mage Revised used to allow players to make Perception + Awareness SR 8 to make ranged attack in the Darkness at +3 diff
(4) If the defender is blinded, the attack gets +2 dices (special mention to the power Darkness of Duat cf. Blood Sacrifice page 26)
(5) With Auspex/Eyes of the Beast/Tongue of the Asp you’re supposed to divide the Darkness related penalty by 2 except inside Shroud of Night.
As an Addition Vampire D.A. used to give to sight related powers used in a Shroud of Night only a -2 dices to perception related rolls.
(6) With Obtenebration 1, in D.A. revised you could move the shadows around in order to negate 1 dice of perception-based penalty per level of obtenebration u possessed. It was described as the action of “removing the shadow hiding your sight”. (see below, more on this topic)
(7) The Blind Fighting Skill, as it is described in the Vampire Player’s Guide 2nd Ed p.27

Quote :

Spoiler:

The official elements we can piece together:

_When you are blinded you suffer -5 to your perception based rolls (in order to find/detect things based on sight) according to (2) and (7).
_And you suffer a +2 diff on your actions. (But remember that except in really close combat, where you can keep track of your opponent, you must roll perception before being able to strike)
_Anyone attacking someone unable to locate his attacker because he cannot see get +2 dices to his attacks rolls as if he was attacking from behind.

That gives us a baseline for penalty but a number of things are still to clarify:

_With Auspex 1 & Serpentis 2 you divide natural darkness related penalty by 2 (rounded down) resulting in a +1 diff to action and -2 dices on perception. In the case of obtenebration Auspex 1, Serpentis 2 you divide only the perception based penalty. It leaves a +2 diff to actions and a -2 dices to perception (protean 1 is in the same case)
_The Blind Fighting Skill suppose that there is 5 degree in blindness (even if your are blind u could still perceive your surrounding through other means). There is 5 level of skill and the maximum perception based penalty for darkness is -5 so it seem obvious to make them correspond.
_The point (6) hint to the fact that obtenebration level 1 could remove or add shadow up to the general obtenebration level. Since there seem to be at max -5 dices to perception from darkness, at obtenebration level 5 you could turn a well-lit room into full darkness with just the level 1 (in term of darkness related penalty it should not be more than natural darkness with the “shadow play” bonus/malus as normal).
_Even if ranged attacks are not possible through darkness except through some special skills or powers & all actions gets a +2 diff, it should none the less be harder to hit someone from a range than someone in contact. So the difficulty of ranged attack (whenever possible) should be +3 instead of the regular +2 to all action like suggested in the point (3) provided that you successfully perceived your target.

Rules I suggest according to this:

Levels of Darkness:

Spoiler:

Blind Fighting Skill:

Spoiler:

Awareness Skill:
_While blinded & aware of the presence of someone, you can make a Perception + Awareness roll, difficulty 8 (as Awareness is not based on sight it is not reduced by 5 dice). If you succeeded you can try hitting someone in close combat at +2 difficulty or making a distant shot at +3 difficulty.

Auspex 1:
_All ranges provided by lights are doubled
_Inside normal kind of Darkness: Perception – 2, Actions +1 diff (even distant shot).
_Inside Obtenebration: Perception -2 dices, Actions +2 diff (even distant shots).

Serpentis 2
_Inside normal kind of Darkness: Perception -2 dices, Actions +1 diff (even distant shot).
_Inside Obtenebration: Perception -2 dices, Actions +2 diff (even distant shots).

Protean 1:
_Inside normal kind of Darkness: no penalty
_Inside Obtenebration: Perception -2 dices, Actions +2 diff (even distant shots).


Obtenebration:

_A little reminder of the first level of obtenebration in Vampire D.A. p.99-100

Quote :

Spoiler:

This text can provide a baseline in order to use the different levels of darkness…
The phrase that interest me is this one:
“She can also manipulate ambient shadow in a way to help her see through it, reducing darkness-related penalty by her Obtenebration rating”
It tells us that an Obtenebration user can lift obtenebration levels of ambient shadows in order to bring a scene into the light.
I won’t extend myself on the fact that written this way it seem to go against the concept of the discipline, which is to darken a scene… bringing a scene into the light by your obtenebration level, it’s a weird formulation… What about the Darksight flaw that get light & shadow inverted ? Can you add levels of shadows in order to see better ? I would tend to answer yes, of course.
So, in fact you could add or subtract Obtenebration levels to the ambient shadows… Wouldn’t that make more senses than only being able to move away the ambient shadows ? Imho it would.
If you take this into account and regardless of powers related to individuals levels:
_Someone possessing Obtenebration 5 could put a well-lighted room into total darkness with just shadowplay. (Auspex would still consider that the darkness is natural only for darkness related penalty…).
_Someone with only Obtenebration 2 would be able to dim the lights of a room from “Well lighted” to Heavy shadows (-3 to perception, +1 diff). It doesn’t feel to me it’s overpowered to give this ability at rank 1 since its relative power depend on the global level of obtenebration
_Someone with Obtenebration 4 could be able to move a room from “Close to Dark” to “Plain Light” (Sound Weird isn’t it ?).
_But if Obtenebration is able to bring any level of shadow in an area in Plain Light, as there is (almost) never a place without a shadow. It can never bring light in a place of total darkness.
_Little consideration: Does this kind of shadows work by extinguishing lights around ? I feel it does not (why would be the point of the combo power "Smothering Shadows" exist. So even if the ambiant lights are reduced to pitch dark through shadowplay, the lights coming from flames source should alway be lighting a bit around them. Consider for this purpose that the "Plain Light" range coming from flame sources is never to be reduced in any way. It then drop suddenly to the desired level of shade, shadow being more dense with the consistency of a fog.

Other considerations on Obtenebration:
How does the Level 4 “Black Metamorphosis” is influencing the darkness related penalty ?

Quote :

Spoiler:

_In darkness, even if unable to see, the vampire suffer a maximum of 1 dice of penalty regarding perception related rolls and suffer only +1 penalty on the difficulty of all his actions (even on ranged attack).
_Finally as he is able to feel his environment, he is able to keep track of anyone he is aware of. Once a threat revealed itself, there is no way it’ll ever be able to use darkness in order to hide during the rest of the skirmish.
Btw, how do you feel this power should interact with the malus provided by someone else’s Shroud of Night ?

About the Level 5 “Tenebrous Form”

Quote :

Spoiler:

Do you feel the ability to see in natural darkness provided by the level 5 should be restrained to the moments the vampire is in shadow form ? I always felt that with 5 in Obtenebration it would be lame not to be able to always see through natural darkness… What about Shroud of Night created by other user of obtenebration ? Shouldn’t this level 5 provide at least the same amount of perception that a level 1 power is providing while in a Shroud ? I mean as Auspex & Protean are both reducing the perception related from a -5 dices to a -2 dices, even if they still suffer from the +2 to their actions. I feel it should not be different with obtenebration level 5.
By the way, is a vampire in Tenebrous Form” still able to “sense his surrounding fully even in pitch Darkness” ?


Merits and Darkness

_Alternate Sense: I guess there should be no penalties to perception and actions while in the Dark. But what do you feel about it ? Should the penalties be the same as Obtenebration 4 (see above) as sensing your surrounding is a kind of alternate sense ?
_Acute Sense: Hearing. Any idea on bonus it should provide ? What kind of advantage does that give to someone blinded ?
Eidetic Memory: It should help you navigate through a room you’ve actually seen before


A few points that I feel should be modified/added

_That was intended to be used in D.A./Victorian Ages so the darkness related penalty are not focusing on electrical source of lights (by the way shouldn’t there be some discussion on how Obtenebration affect electrical sources of lights ? And does a Shroud of Night extinguish a torch ? I do have some answers on my own but I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the book for newbies) Any idea on the range of electrical sources of light would be greatly appreciated… I was thinking to double the range of lights made of fire…
_I’m not certain about the actual range of the lights. First I use a metric system so u should help me to give an alternative, then I want to know how u feel about this setting
_In this system with Auspex 1 and a Level 3 of Blind Fighting, you become able to function without malus in normal darkness. And you suffer only a +1 diff to your actions in a shroud of night

Ok, now I want feedback, I want to know how you feel about adding to the Abyssal compendium:
1) An extension of the rules about “levels of Darkness” & the penalty associated with it. Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
2) A discussion on Obtenebration and the possibility of shadowplay in relation with the “level of Darkness” around.
Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
3) A place for the revision of an old Skill (blind fighting) possibly interesting in all campaign with a vampire possessing even a few levels of obtenebration.
Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
4) Do you have other remarks about Awareness, Auspex or other disciplines…


[quote]Example:
Michelle was walking into the basement of the Sabbat’s lair. The room was really dark but she had to advance if she wanted to find her packmates. She could not let them down, not again. She had fled the first time she was confronted with some kind of unusual darkness and all her coterie had been captured.
Careful not to be ambushed Michelle walked down the stairs quietly.

Spoiler:

In order to have a better peek at the scene surrounding her she activated the power of Auspex that was granted by her Toreador blood.

Spoiler:

Thanks to it she wasn’t usually too much bothered by the shadows, but this basement was slightly different since there was not even the smallest light to guide her…

Spoiler:

Unaware of the danger Michelle failed to notice that the quite distinct smell of Patchouli floating in the room should belong to someone sill around.
At the other side of the room the hidden assassin was listening to every little sound Michelle was making on her way

Spoiler:

From the moment he heard the first sounds coming from the stairs he kept track of her every move

Spoiler:

Now that she’s deep in the basement, the assassin decides to throw a knife at her from a small distance.

Spoiler:

The knife flew near Michelle’s ear. Now she was certain that someone was there but where ? Immediately she crouched, waiting, hoping that her opponent would lose track of her or that he would make some kind of mistake.

Spoiler:

The killer pulls out a second knife getting ready to strike again...
[quote]


I’ll write the rest of the example later if I can find the courage… ;-)


Hope u like the ideas I presented here and u'll find some time to write some feedbacks on it

Agathe De Lannuie wrote:

Since Obtenebration is based on the idea of shadow & the absence of light, & considering the few rules on Darkness penalties inside the V20, I feel it would be interesting, inside a guide talking about Abyssal Mysticism, to provide a baseline in order to deal with Darkness and levels of Shadows.

Imho 4 things need to be consider: Perception modifiers/ actions modifiers/ powers modifiers (Auspex, Obtenebration…)/ Skills modifiers (Blind Fighting Skill & Awareness)
I also want to emphasis on the need to reexamine the blind fighting skill since it no longer has any relation with the very few rules provided in V20: according to the text taking 2 levels in this Skill would be enough to have no penalty at all in darkness… And it was already broken at the time it was written.

First of all, I love your path of approach. I believe that is all the references to Blind-Fighting and Maneuvering in the Dark, correct? I like how you collate them all into one source and define it from there. That's how I typically try to approach stuff (or at least, using as many different sources as I know about/have access to).

Quote :

The points we know:

(1) In total darkness there is a +2 diff to all actions as per the blind fighting rules V20 p.274
(2) In the Shroud of Night (Obtenebration) of the the Vampire Revised & the Vampire D.A. there is also a -5 dices penalty to perception.
(3) When blinded you cannot make any ranged attack except with Auspex heightened Sens, Tongue of the Wasp or the blind fighting skill. Mage Revised used to allow players to make Perception + Awareness SR 8 to make ranged attack in the Darkness at +3 diff
(4) If the defender is blinded, the attack gets +2 dices (special mention to the power Darkness of Duat cf. Blood Sacrifice page 26)
(5) With Auspex/Eyes of the Beast/Tongue of the Asp you’re supposed to divide the Darkness related penalty by 2 except inside Shroud of Night.
As an Addition Vampire D.A. used to give to sight related powers used in a Shroud of Night only a -2 dices to perception related rolls.
(6) With Obtenebration 1, in D.A. revised you could move the shadows around in order to negate 1 dice of perception-based penalty per level of obtenebration u possessed. It was described as the action of “removing the shadow hiding your sight”. (see below, more on this topic)
(7) The Blind Fighting Skill, as it is described in the Vampire Player’s Guide 2nd Ed p.27

Blind Fighting:
Even when unable to see your foes, you use your Brawl or Melee Abilities with a reduced penalty or no penalty. This Skill may also be of great use out of combat. It should be noted that this Skill does not grant any actual ability to see better in darkness. For each dot the character has in this Skill, reduce the difficulty for performing actions while blind by one. (Naturally, the difficulty can never be reduced below its unhindered equivalent.)

1) Novice: You don’t stub your toe in the dark.
2) Practiced: You can pinpoint the direction from which sounds come.
3) Competent: You can fight and predict your enemies’ locations at the same time.
4) Expert: You can almost “feel” where your opponents are.
5) Master: You possess an almost mystical sense – Zen and the Art of Spatial Awareness.
Possed by: Ninja, Assassins, Martial Artists, Spelunkers, Zen Archers
Specialties: Dodging, Punching, Indoors, Dueling, Multiples Foes [/spoiler]

You are the master-researcher of CWoD stuff, I'm convinced, lol. You dig up some really good stuff alot, thanks. =)

As for all the stuff following, I'll say that I basically like and agree with it all. The only thing that doesn't really strike me as great is the Levels of Light/Darkness you have so far. I think they just need to be simplified just a little and then they'll be good too. Either way, I'd like the concept to have a section in the Guide. (To be honest, in a book about Obten and the Abyss, not mentioning actions in the dark would probably be kind of forgetful of us.)

Quote :

Merits and Darkness

_Alternate Sense: I guess there should be no penalties to perception and actions while in the Dark. But what do you feel about it ? Should the penalties be the same as Obtenebration 4 (see above) as sensing your surrounding is a kind of alternate sense ?
_Acute Sense: Hearing. Any idea on bonus it should provide ? What kind of advantage does that give to someone blinded ?
Eidetic Memory: It should help you navigate through a room you’ve actually seen before

How could a Cainite possibly go about developing a sense beyond the normal human five (and perhaps a vague "sixth" through use of Disciplines and such)? I think maybe Blood Magic and/or Vicissitude could be one of the only ways, but would there even be another way?

Quote :

A few points that I feel should be modified/added

_That was intended to be used in D.A./Victorian Ages so the darkness related penalty are not focusing on electrical source of lights (by the way shouldn’t there be some discussion on how Obtenebration affect electrical sources of lights ? And does a Shroud of Night extinguish a torch ? I do have some answers on my own but I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the book for newbies) Any idea on the range of electrical sources of light would be greatly appreciated… I was thinking to double the range of lights made of fire…
_I’m not certain about the actual range of the lights. First I use a metric system so u should help me to give an alternative, then I want to know how u feel about this setting
_In this system with Auspex 1 and a Level 3 of Blind Fighting, you become able to function without malus in normal darkness. And you suffer only a +1 diff to your actions in a shroud of night

1. The Darkness summoned by Obtenebration (and moreso by Abyss Mysticism, I would say), is not natural, but supernatural, so I would say such things would be determined by power of the light (wattage?... voltage?... illumination?), and not the source. Whatever electrical light casts off the same level of luminescence as a torch is affected by most torch-affecting powers. In fact, I would say Thaumaturges and other Blood Sorcerers would have to worry about such things far more often than an Abyss mystic would. This entire portion of this post was brought to you in part by my humble opinion....
2. I didn't really give that much thought yet, honestly. I figured we'd work that out in the process of discussing the system.
3. Hmmm... I guess that sounds reasonable for now, I mean, the supposed victim does have Blind fighting 3, so... yeah, they are at least averagely practiced at maneuvring in the dark... plus they have Heightened senses on, sooooo, yeah, I guess, lol.

Quote :

Ok, now I want feedback, I want to know how you feel about adding to the Abyssal compendium:
1) An extension of the rules about “levels of Darkness” & the penalty associated with it. Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
2) A discussion on Obtenebration and the possibility of shadowplay in relation with the “level of Darkness” around.
Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
3) A place for the revision of an old Skill (blind fighting) possibly interesting in all campaign with a vampire possessing even a few levels of obtenebration.
Do u think it should be included ? Do you have read other official rules that would be interesting for us to know ? Let me know any critics you can think of about the system I propose. If you think or use other rules let us know it…
4) Do you have other remarks about Awareness, Auspex or other disciplines…

1. As mentioned above, I think it could be appropriate, but of course, I always like to hear at least one other person agree with the idea also.
2. I think Shadow Play should just be included in the section above, discussing darkness in general. Perhaps at the end, or in a side-bar, Shadow Play, and the ways it affects the previously defined systems could be mentioned.
3. I absolutely think this should be included, if only because Abyss mystics may be inclined to follow the Lightless Path of Night... or perhaps have an Abyss mystic enemy who likes to fight in the traditional Lasombra way: "smother each other in darkness."
4. Only thing I have to say of any real value here would be I think Awareness (Ability) should obviously be like a watered-down version of the others (Heightened Senses, etc). Similar to how the Thaumaturgic Path of Shadowcasting is a watered-down, inferior version of Obtenebration.

Quote :

Example:
Michelle was walking into the basement of the Sabbat’s lair. The room was really dark but she had to advance if she wanted to find her packmates. She could not let them down, not again. She had fled the first time she was confronted with some kind of unusual darkness and all her coterie had been captured.
Careful not to be ambushed Michelle walked down the stairs quietly.

Spoiler:

In order to have a better peek at the scene surrounding her she activated the power of Auspex that was granted by her Toreador blood.

Spoiler:

Thanks to it she wasn’t usually too much bothered by the shadows, but this basement was slightly different since there was not even the smallest light to guide her…

Spoiler:

Unaware of the danger Michelle failed to notice that the quite distinct smell of Patchouli floating in the room should belong to someone sill around.
At the other side of the room the hidden assassin was listening to every little sound Michelle was making on her way

Spoiler:

From the moment he heard the first sounds coming from the stairs he kept track of her every move

Spoiler:

Now that she’s deep in the basement, the assassin decides to throw a knife at her from a small distance.

Spoiler:

The knife flew near Michelle’s ear. Now she was certain that someone was there but where ? Immediately she crouched, waiting, hoping that her opponent would lose track of her or that he would make some kind of mistake.

Spoiler:

The killer pulls out a second knife getting ready to strike again...

Aw, sweet, lol. An "Example-of-Play," that's great. That's one of the classic WW-things we're still missing, heh.

Quote :

First of all, I love your path of approach. I believe that is all the references to Blind-Fighting and Maneuvering in the Dark, correct? I like how you collate them all into one source and define it from there. That's how I typically try to approach stuff (or at least, using as many different sources as I know about/have access to).

Thanks, I think we share the same concerns about quality.
Indeed it's all the references I could find... If someone has some more I would love to hear about it

Quote :

You are the master-researcher of CWoD stuff, I'm convinced, lol. You dig up some really good stuff alot, thanks. =)

As for all the stuff following, I'll say that I basically like and agree with it all. The only thing that doesn't really strike me as great is the Levels of Light/Darkness you have so far. I think they just need to be simplified just a little and then they'll be good too. Either way, I'd like the concept to have a section in the Guide. (To be honest, in a book about Obten and the Abyss, not mentioning actions in the dark would probably be kind of forgetful of us.)

Your welcome, I did it because I had to for my games... It's always nice to share
I do think we could get rules more simplified but I don't have a clue how... If someone could be of some help there
The thing is we need to keep is 5 level of Darkness it's too convenient with the actual system of play (since there is -5 max blindness penalty, 5 basic levels of obtenebration (cf. shadowplay effect), 5 level of Skill Blindfighting & 5 levels max in a "not supernatural" perception).

Spoiler:

Quote :

How could a Cainite possibly go about developing a sense beyond the normal human five (and perhaps a vague "sixth" through use of Disciplines and such)? I think maybe Blood Magic and/or Vicissitude could be one of the only ways, but would there even be another way?

I see a few more things:
_Ghouls could come from a kind of animal that would posses an alternate sens.
_Protean 4 gives you acces to a bat form with an alternate sens
_Could a gangel frenzy result in an alternate sens ? (it could be the reason a player spend point in such an advantage)
_Obtenebration level 4 is an alternate sens in a way... Could someone transform the power into a permanent advantage by paying the alternate sens cost ?
_Auspex >6 (I do remember a Tzimice possessing a sonar/bat sense thanks to Auspex 6. He was named count Valdimir Rustovitch and he's in "Rage: Warriors of the Apocalypse" p.125
_I would tend to think that, when you get over 5 dot in Perception u could justify the acquisition of a new sense

Spoiler:

Quote :

1. The Darkness summoned by Obtenebration (and moreso by Abyss Mysticism, I would say), is not natural, but supernatural, so I would say such things would be determined by power of the light (wattage?... voltage?... illumination?), and not the source. Whatever electrical light casts off the same level of luminescence as a torch is affected by most torch-affecting powers. In fact, I would say Thaumaturges and other Blood Sorcerers would have to worry about such things far more often than an Abyss mystic would. This entire portion of this post was brought to you in part by my humble opinion....
3. Hmmm... I guess that sounds reasonable for now, I mean, the supposed victim does have Blind fighting 3, so... yeah, they are at least averagely practiced at maneuvring in the dark... plus they have Heightened senses on, sooooo, yeah, I guess, lol.

1)Ok, I still don't know how I'm gonna deal with that. I do appreciate the wattage idea but I wonder how it will be applied. I have not enough scientific knowledge of that to have a good picture of the pb & I would like it not to be too complicated for the GM
3) Exactly, that's my point: it's average blind fighting + Auspex so it shouldn't be too hard to perform

Quote :

2. I think Shadow Play should just be included in the section above, discussing darkness in general. Perhaps at the end, or in a side-bar, Shadow Play, and the ways it affects the previously defined systems could be mentioned.
3. I absolutely think this should be included, if only because Abyss mystics may be inclined to follow the Lightless Path of Night... or perhaps have an Abyss mystic enemy who likes to fight in the traditional Lasombra way: "smother each other in darkness."
4. Only thing I have to say of any real value here would be I think Awareness (Ability) should obviously be like a watered-down version of the others (Heightened Senses, etc). Similar to how the Thaumaturgic Path of Shadowcasting is a watered-down, inferior version of Obtenebration.

2) Isn't it ? . I also think it should be together with the Darkness related penalty in a side-bar.
3) I follow u on that, and I want to add the fact that Mystic as well as Lasombra do want to blind their opponent, but they might not want to pull out a wall of living darkness. Being more subtle like setting a frightening mood without having a fully tangible proof of the problem (on the opposite a Shroud of Night is always really obvious and if cast in a well lit area, it can even be shawn [a wall of darkness] and touched [it's liquid])
4) Ok, I thought it was watered down since:
_The Perception + Awareness is diff 8 (instead of diff 6 for Perception + Alertness) but no dice penalty apply
_It must be done each time you would want to hit a target (no way to keep track of the opponent)
_It's diff +2 to hit in close combat (as normal when blinded, Auspex is still better in normal darkness having diff +1 only)
_It's diff +3 to hit from a distance (Auspex is way better for that having only diff +1, or +2 in Shroud of Night)

I thought it was watered down...
But if you want to add something it could be:
_The person using awareness has to spend one action in order to detect someone through his mysticals senses, up to the level 2 (included). When the player is at level 3 he is competent and has accumulated enough practice to have a vague sense of the Aura (cf. the description of the Awareness in Mage) therefore he doesn't need anymore to . For me, Level 3 is always something special since I consider that people get competent at that time, so there should be a reward...
Or u could want to wait until level 4 and the specialty

Spoiler:

One more consideration:
I always thought awareness was the missing link between being able to comprehend the aura through Auspex and being able to understand where the aura is coming in relation with ur own body.
I read story about players wanting to see through aura perception. The answer they got was: "Auspex 2 is not space related". Imho, I feel that Awareness, as a competence, is space related, so awareness >=3 or 4 + Auspex 2, should be as good as an alternate sense.

Quote :

Aw, sweet, lol. An "Example-of-Play," that's great. That's one of the classic WW-things we're still missing, heh.

I'm found of this since it helps anyone to understand how to use the rules designed. It helps comprehension.
I'm gonna try to finish it, if you want to use it in the book...


Btw:
Regarding the rules related to ambiant lights, I never intended them to be too complicated.
I always considered that they were barely an indication for the GM.
Instead I think GM should give the ambiant level of darkness on his own... but with a vague idea of this table
As I showed before: A torch should lit you well, your friends around almost as well, but further than them it should be less...

Thanks for ur comments, always nice to know your opinion on this kind of matter ;-)

The member 'Agathe De Lannuie' has done the following action : Dice Roll

'd10' : 4, 6, 8, 7, 9, 4, 8, 7, 1, 1

Afaik the awareness ability from mage is slightly diffrent from the one in V20. Now i dont know how much this book is made with crossover in mind, but shouldn't the references and powers/abilities come from vampire books?

True, Cadmium. This Abyss guide will have some cross-over information, and some of the fluff is straight-up inspired by fluff from Werewolf or Mage, etc. But, Vampire is the name of the game, so VtM references will be the default. Concepts and ideas introduced in Vampire, however, may be expanded upon by the concepts and ideas in other game-lines, but in order to help the reader maintain a sense of "clarity" concerning what is Vtm-information and what is not, all of the references cited by Agathe above will be included in the section. That way readers will know that some of our fluff is based on the CWoD in general, and can also look up the info on their own and make their own determinations.

So where are we at here, also?

Does anybody else have any thing relevant to to add to the discussion? Comments? Questions? Bitches, I mean concerns? Anybody? Anything?

How about someone interested in turning this into something somewhat readable, and then I can add "fluff and flair" later?

...in other words, bump.

Okay, so I took Blind Fighting out of here and put it in the Chapter 1 section.

The rest I'm not so sure about, like if we would need it or not.=, no offense of course. But the levels of darkness, for instance, I just think would be kind of unnecessary at this point. Unless you want to go ahead and write something else, like a paragraph about why you have found such a thing useful, then go for it and we can look at it. =)

Otherwise, I think maybe we could put that in our "Grey Jackal Companion," which would be a lll random shit that doesn't fit into any one specific book.