Polonia, Shadowmancer and Tenebrous Traveler

Last edited by Gattison on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

"The Polonia-Abyss Connection"

Enthuselah wrote:: Hi Gattison,

thanks for your reply on the thread. I’ve been really busy this weekend, but now I’ll hopefully have some more time to post as well. So many thoughts!

But speculating about the whole Polonia-Abyss connection made me think that you, being the ‘Abyss Guy’, should have access to the scenes in question so you can form your own opinion – even though we all know that the clan novels can’t be seen as entirely canon, they’re probably as close as it gets to semi-canon, and the details of this scene provide some very interesting hints as to the nature of the ‘tenebrous realm’ and its inhabitants.

So, since I just finished reading this novel in particular and remember where to find the scenes, without further ado:

Excerpts from Tzimisce Clan Novel:

[Towards the beginning of the novel, Polonia is preparing for the meeting with the nomadic pack leaders, Borges and his people, plus Sascha Vykos, that will start the conquest of the East Coast. He has just spent a lot of time making sure that the whole conference room appeals to his OCD-like need for planning and order.]

Quote :: Polonia had come around full circuit again to his own seat and to the body that swung gently behind it, like a tapestry. It was intended as a visible sign of the proximity of the Camarilla—a young Toreador, prim, effete, immaculate. He did not seem in the least inconvenienced by the coarse noose or by the improbable angle of his neck. Like the rest of the room, he was perfect.

Polonia wanted to keep attention focused on the Camarilla—on its posturing, its weakness, its vulnerability. He could not have been more pleased with his hunters’ catch. The victim’s hands were clasped before him in an attitude of supplication. They clenched a viscous-looking black candle. Polonia lit the wick and long shadows stretched away from him in all directions.

By the light of the candle, Polonia further scrutinized the victim’s features. Priceless. Even the Toreador’s fangs were vestigial, unthreatening—a fact that, no doubt, explained the curious artifact Polonia had found earlier.

He again drew out the carefully folded and slightly perfumed silk handkerchief. Opening it, he revealed an intricately etched silver bauble—a long thimble of exquisite workmanship with a wicked lancet protruding from the tip. Swiftly, Polonia tapped the underside of the victim’s chin, withdrawing the lancet before the first droplet of blood could fall. He carefully rewrapped the delicate silver needle to the sound of the first drops hissing and spluttering onto the oily candle below.

He was now irrevocably committed to the ritual at hand. It was only with great reluctance that he turned his back upon the conference room. His fingers ached for the tactile assurance of the great table, to make one last circuit of the room, to order the uncertainties of the coming night carefully.
Enough. There was nothing more he could do here. Resignedly, Polonia gave the corpse a gentle shove, setting it swinging in a slow, pendular arc. Blood and wax spattered an intricate spiral pattern on the tile floor.

He wondered what signs and omens might be read in the curious pattern of fallen droplets. Here in a gentle spray of trailing blood, an influential warlord lay dead, slumped over his cups. There, in a notable clot of wax, he saw a seal affixed to a compact that would bring feuding packleaders together and give the entire Camarilla cause to tremble.

The answer was here somewhere, hidden in the riddle of falling droplets. But which images were glimpses of things to come and which were mere phantasms conjured from a desire, or its converse, a fear? Polonia, faced only with further uncertainties, abandoned his musings.
He could not resist taking one last long look over the room. Then with mingled satisfaction and resignation, he reached out a sure hand toward the swinging corpse and took a single step sideways into shadow.

Polonia pushed through the barrier and into the tenebrous realm known only to the most accomplished shadow warriors of his clan. The room beyond looked very much like the one he had just quit. A rough-hewn circular conference table dominated the hall. In the uncertain half-light, each of the worm-holes that riddled the oaken surfaces was clearly visible, thrown into sharp relief.

The play of the light and shadow worked further mischief over the carefully ordered festhall, seeming somehow to exaggerate Polonia’s chair. It now resembled nothing so much as an empty throne draped languidly with the trappings of the grave. This funerary seat presided over a great banquet of tarnished silver, goblets brimming with dust, delicately woven cobweb linens. Polonia surveyed the board with a hint of satisfaction. A vibrant red apple atop a decorative fruit bowl immediately arrested his gaze. Aside from the candle flame, it was the only spot of color in the room. All else was decked in subtle and varied shades of gray.

“Missed that one,” Polonia mused aloud.
“Poisoned, perhaps,” came the reply. “Very romantic, but not quite so effective. Surely it will not be necessary for your guests to keep up the appearance of eating on such a grand occasion.”
No matter how many times it happened, Polonia always found himself somewhat startled at the transitionless appearance of the envoys. One moment they were not there, the next they were—speaking, or taking, or touching.

Polonia turned quickly, but not so quickly that the other had not already taken his elbow to usher him to his chair. The sensation was not unlike sawing through bone. He disengaged as politely as he could manage and took his place at the table. “No, more likely the apple conceals some weapon or perhaps even an incendiary device.”

“Ah…” the envoy replied with escalating interest. There was a flutter of a breeze and a shadow seemed to break away and stretch toward the apple. Suddenly, a brilliant flash illuminated the room. Tatters of shadow streaked in all directions and then fell to the floor in a gentle rain of scorched confetti. The explosion of light and its aftermath were accompanied by a complete and unsettling silence.
Polonia settled back in his chair. There were no further stirrings, no further signs of color, of vibrancy He resigned himself to wait.

“A most excellent incendiary. Yes, quite satisfactory. Borges?”
Polonia had expected the voice to come from one of the corners of the room, where the shadows had fled. He was disappointed as the form materialized directly before him, standing atop the table. It made a low bow.
“In all likelihood. It bears his mark,” Polonia replied, trying to appear unruffled. “I understand that in Miami such modern contrivances are all the rage—firearms, grenades, flame-throwers…”
The shape before him fluttered excitedly at the very mention of flame-throwers. “Will Borges be in attendance, then?”
“Yes, of course. You will see him yourself. He will be seated directly opposite me. There.” Polonia gestured to the far end of the table where a crude wooden stool half leaned against the table leg. There was a truncheon of stale bread and a tin cup sitting before the stool.
Polonia smiled at this further contrivance of the shadow realm. He was well acquainted with the subtle alterations these environs worked upon the eye of the beholder, images carefully arranged to flatter, to tempt, to cajole.

He found himself once again thinking of the strange omens worked in blood and candlewax at the threshold of the twilit realm—reflections of desires and fears made manifest. Visible emanations of things that were hidden or, more accurately, concealed.

“I was under the impression that Borges had sworn never to set foot in Atlanta.”
Polonia smiled. “He made a great show, of course, of not coming. I believe my fellow archbishop took it as something of a slight that the honor of conducting the siege did not fall to him.”
“He may well have more to say about that issue before your gathering is concluded.”
“Yes. I am much of the same opinion,” Polonia replied. “Atlanta is, after all, veritably right in his backyard.”
“And quite some distance from your own territory. I believe I understand you. He had, no doubt, extended his ambition, if not his actual hand, over the city already?”
Polonia laughed aloud. “Yes, his agents were among the very first sent in to reconnoiter the city and, later, to disrupt the operations and posturings of the Camarilla. But there was never any real possibility of Borges passing up this war council. The Siege of Atlanta will be something talked about for generations to come. It is simply too great an event to be missed.”
“If they don’t all kill each other first,” the shade replied.
“If they don’t all kill each other first.”

An uncomfortable silence fell in the shadowy throne room. It was the envoy that broke the silence.
“And what of the regent? Does she send no representative to the council?”
“The regent?” Polonia lowered his voice. “Our Most Distinguished Excellency is content to remain unavoidably engaged in Mexico City. No, she has made it quite clear that she is taking no hand whatsoever in such ‘regional squabblings.’”
“Ah, but she could not remain uninterested in anyone who could bring the feuding warbands together and drive the Camarilla from Atlanta…Such a one would certainly be well on his way to winning a cardinal’s throne.”

Polonia could feel the seat shift beneath him, expanding, bearing him upward. He made a dismissive gesture with the flat of his hand and the motion ceased. “The Vicar of Caine merely exercises her uncanny sense of when there is likely to be any contention among her archbishops. She is shrewd enough to remain conspicuously absent on such occasions. No regent, no legate to argue her cause, not even a nuncio to proclaim her will.”

Polonia broke off. It was always a somewhat delicate matter as to how much one could or could not say before the envoys. It would be foolish to believe that the regent’s mastery of shadow was not as great as Polonia’s own. It was quite possible that the regent might be just as adept at extracting damaging testimony from the shadowy envoys as she was from the Cainites that fell under her power.

The envoy interrupted these musings. “You fear that they will not put aside their differences, that they will not follow your lead.”
“I fear,” said Polonia, “that we shall bring down upon ourselves the bloodiest internecine war that has ever ravaged the Sabbat.”
“Ah, but you have gone to such great pains to ensure that this does not happen,” the envoy soothed. “Look around you. All is in order. Everything in its proper place.”
The envoy cast an admiring eye over the precise arrangements. It paused, its shadowy hand eclipsing the placecard to Polonia’s left. “Vykos? I do not believe we are familiar with…”
“No, you would not be. A Tzimisce. From the Old Country. She is the special emissary from Cardinal Moncada of Madrid.” Polonia’s tone betrayed his resentment of what many would see as a foreign intrusion in a purely domestic matter.
“Ah, now Moncada, that is a name that I do know. But what interest can the great cardinal have in this undertaking? It has been quite some time since he last turned his attention to these far shores.”
“Moncada is a dangerous and cunning strategist,” Polonia mused. He toyed absently with a rusted chalice. “It is less than a year now since the newest member of the College of Cardinals secured his office by putting an end to the ravenous Blood Curse. The pestilence had utterly decimated Sabbat packs on both sides of the Atlantic. In New York, no fewer than one in every three pack members fell victim—a loss from which we will not soon recover. Madrid was rumored to have been even more savaged by the epidemic, some reports placing the level of attrition as high as three in four.”

“Death by pestilence,” the envoy commented ruefully. “Such a needless and wasteful final emanation.” There was a sudden dank chill in the air, which might have been a sigh.
“Given such desparate odds, some would say that it is no coincidence that Moncada should have been the one to make the critical breakthrough. If he had failed to do so, he and all of his line would certainly be dead and forgotten by now. There are those, however,” Polonia’s voice fell to a conspirational whisper, “who go so far as to say that Moncada’s discovery was not merely an act of Providence. I have heard it told that it was Moncada’s own agents that engineered the plague in the first place, although for what possible advantage I could not imagine. Not that I would count myself among the rumormongers, you understand.”

Polonia paused significantly before continuing. “At any rate, none would contest the fact that Moncada has set his ambitions very high indeed—and that he is not adverse to resorting to extreme measures to accomplish his ends. It would not be unreasonable to think that he is positioning himself to contend for the regency itself.”
“And what price would be too high to pay for such a lofty prize?” the envoy replied excitedly, borne along by this train of thought. “The lives of a few hand-picked followers? He certainly would not scruple at so meager a cost.”
“It is not the lives of his own followers that concern me,” Polonia replied coldly, picking at the nearest of the coffin nails that pierced the arm of his throne. “Merely having forces present at a victory in Atlanta will not bring Moncada a single step closer to the regency.”
“Yes, but…oh, I see. You fear that perhaps it is not only his own followers that he is willing to sacrifice. What, after all, are the lives of a few dozen upstart New World Sabbat to the great cardinal?”
“What worries me more,” Polonia replied, “is that Moncada might be willing to sacrifice all—his followers, his allies, victory in Atlanta itself—for some greater advantage. The cardinal weighs out his gains and losses very carefully, but I cannot see his shadowy scales and I mistrust them greatly.” He pressed on. “How does a victory in Atlanta measure up against the possibility of destabilizing the North American Sabbat? Of weakening the regent’s New World power base? Of depriving her of her nearest allies? It is quite possible that Moncada’s emissary comes not to bolster but to betray our war effort.”
If Polonia had hoped to startle some reaction from his shadowy companion, he was disappointed. The envoy merely nodded, accepting this new information without comment or censure. After a pause, the shade asked somewhat distractedly, “But why would he send a Tzimisce as his representative?”

Polonia had been troubled by this choice of ambassador as well. Moncada was a Lasombra, a shadowmancer like Polonia himself, and the regent, and most of the other highly placed leaders of the Sabbat for that matter. It would have been natural for Moncada to send one of his attendants, a fellow Lasombra, to the gathering.
A Tzimisce was another matter entirely. Although the Tzimisce had always proved steadfastly loyal to the Sabbat and formidable allies to their brethren Lasombra, they made for notoriously poor politicians, negotiators, and councilors. Few would think to stand against a Tzimisce in a head-on conflict—for they were fearsome foes, with a flair for inspiring awe and terror. But sending a Tzimisce to represent you in council was paramount to throwing down the gauntlet.

“Perhaps he hopes to strengthen his position and support among the New World Sabbat,” Polonia said. “After fighting side-by-side against the Camarilla, Moncada might well hold up the Siege of Atlanta as an example of how his forces had stood with Borges and myself—up to the waist in the blood of the enemy, or some such romantic notion—while the regent, whose forces were close at hand, could not be bothered to lift a finger to come to our aid.”
“Ah, and if some new cardinal should emerge from the struggle,” the envoy chimed in with honeyed words, “he would naturally be well-disposed toward his new sword-brother.”
“A more pleasant thought, certainly, than the possibility that he might be sending a Tzimisce because no one is more capable of disrupting a fragile peace than a ravening, short-fused, shape-shifting monstrosity. I can’t help but feel that Moncada’s involvement bodes ill for our best-laid plans.” Polonia fixed the envoy with a gaze that allowed for no argument. “I will be relying upon you to neutralize this threat.”
“How may I assist you in this matter?”

Polonia unwrapped a small, tattered piece of cloth. Until recently, it had been a delicate, perfumed silk handkerchief. Now it resembled nothing more than a scrap of hooded mask a leper might use to cover his deformity.
Inside the folds of burlap shone a brilliant glare of silver light. The envoy shrank back instinctively.
Polonia held out his hand, his face half-averted from the newborn star in his palm. Reluctantly, the envoy took the proffered parcel and hastily rewrapped it.

“You will position yourself here.” Polonia pushed himself up and moved one place to his left. His hands rested on the chairback before the place marked ‘Vykos’. The frame of the chair seemed to be crafted entirely of gleaming white bones, cracked off sharply at the top. Polonia unheedingly wrapped his hands around the jagged edges. His knuckles showed white with the intensity of his concentration.
“The silver will strike true—even through the barrier that separates the two rooms.” He brought one hand down and around in a leisurely arc and tapped at the empty space where the guest’s throat would be.
“Do not hesitate to strike should I signal you. The touch of the silver will do you no lasting harm. Nothing, certainly, compared to my anger should you fail me.”
“We shall not fail you,” the envoy replied, still holding the deadly parcel at arm’s length.
“You never have done so before. Please send my respects to your lord and master and tell him that Polonia has the honor to remain his good and faithful servant.”

With that, Polonia turned and reached up to touch the corpse, which still swayed gently behind the throne. One brief sideward step and he was back through the barrier and in his own world once again. A world filled with shadow and with moonlight and with the trappings of the grave.

[Later, when the council has already convened for two nights, Vykos makes a grand display of presenting the severed hands of a Tremere regent and whipping the assembled Tzimisce into a collective frenzy that is threatening not only the careful arrangement of the conference room furniture, but perhaps all of Polonia’s plans. So he twists his ring as a cue to the envoy (the table top is described as sending a sensation like fire ants up his arms at this point), a silver knife appears in Vykos’ back, and…]

Quote :: A voice whispered in Polonia’s ear, the voice of the envoy from the shadow-walking ritual he had enacted only two short nights ago. “It is done, master. I am bidden to ask you to come among us again at your earliest convenience. We have much news to discuss and we now have a boon to ask of you in return.”

When Polonia did not object, the envoy pressed on. “Think upon your wretched servant and have pity. It would be callous indeed for you to stay away longer than it takes for this wound—which I have received in your service this night—to heal. I have suffered the touch of silver for your sake. Come to us soon.”

Polonia rubbed his temples and nodded. The voice was gone as quickly as it had come. He knew that no one else had overheard, that no one else could have overheard. What concerned him more at this moment was Vykos.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty interesting, huh?
It sounds like the place does exist in space, but changes according to what the envoys/their master knows about the person enacting the ritual. Also, Polonia calls himself the servant of the master of the envoys, but a) this is a figure of speech that was used during most of Polonia's existence and could be meant as exactly that...the old-fashioned way of saying "send him/her/it my regards" and b) his threats toward the envoy mean that there must be some form of punishment he could enact if he's displeased. They can't have much power over the material/mortal world by themselves, as they seem to work with Faustian deals and devilish temptation. It's really all quite puzzling and has my brain doing jumping jacks and little somersaults. Any new thoughts/theories?

Last edited by Gattison on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

Gattison wrote:: First of all, very nice job, thanks a ton for thiis, because now that I see it for my own, I think Polonia IS an Abyss-tic, whereas before, others had believed he wasn't. Because of that I want to share this with the others on the thread, unless there was a reason you chose not to post this there yourself. =)

Quote :: He was now irrevocably committed to the ritual at hand.

note the use of the word "ritual." Polonia is also referred to as a "shadowmancer," "like Moncada." He is performing some sort of ritual, and as a shadowmancer, that is most likely Abyss Mysticism, it's looking like.

Quote :: He wondered what signs and omens might be read in the curious pattern of fallen droplets. Here in a gentle spray of trailing blood, an influential warlord lay dead, slumped over his cups. There, in a notable clot of wax, he saw a seal affixed to a compact that would bring feuding packleaders together and give the entire Camarilla cause to tremble.

It looks like the term "shadow-mancy" is being used quite literally, actually. Dririmancy/driromancy is divination by interpreting dripping blood, btw. And apparently Sciomancy is divination by interpreting shadows, which is incidentally the same name used for divination by communication with spirits... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_divination)

Quote :: ...he reached out a sure hand toward the swinging corpse and took a single step sideways into shadow.

Polonia pushed through the barrier and into the tenebrous realm known only to the most accomplished shadow warriors of his clan....

What just happened here EXACTLY? Is Polonia performing two different powers here, or one? Is the swinging, dripping corpse and blood-drop-reading ritual the same or separate from "phase 2," where he "steps sideways" into shadows? Did he fail the shadow-mancy ritual, or was he just unable to decipher it's answers? So did he then decided to turn to asking the envoys? Is a conversation with the envoys implied with shadow-mancy? Or perhaps he had a meeting with the envoys regardless, and thought he had the time to do a little shadow-mancy in the meantime?

Quote :: The room beyond looked very much like the one he had just quit. A rough-hewn circular conference table dominated the hall. In the uncertain half-light, each of the worm-holes that riddled the oaken surfaces was clearly visible, thrown into sharp relief.

The play of the light and shadow worked further mischief over the carefully ordered festhall, seeming somehow to exaggerate Polonia’s chair. It now resembled nothing so much as an empty throne draped languidly with the trappings of the grave. This funerary seat presided over a great banquet of tarnished silver, goblets brimming with dust, delicately woven cobweb linens. Polonia surveyed the board with a hint of satisfaction. A vibrant red apple atop a decorative fruit bowl immediately arrested his gaze. Aside from the candle flame, it was the only spot of color in the room. All else was decked in subtle and varied shades of gray.

“Missed that one,” Polonia mused aloud.
“Poisoned, perhaps,” came the reply. “Very romantic, but not quite so effective. Surely it will not be necessary for your guests to keep up the appearance of eating on such a grand occasion.”

Here, it looks like we see the purpose of the "tenebrous realm." Apparently everything is grey or grey-ish or black and white pretty much, but "things of significance" retain their color and thus stick out to [Polonia] to be made more obvious. We see later that the apple is booby-trapped with an "incendiary," (but it might have been a poison or some other kind of weapon, so at the very least Polonia uses it to sense threats.

But if this is an Abyss Mysticism ritual, perhaps the tenebrous realm allows a mystic to see things as "yes or no?" Perhaps the mystic can choose, anything from threats, to supernatural-beings, to keys, to a specific molecule or compound, to insects--and whatever the mystic chooses are the only things that retain their color in the tenebrous realm. It would be a quick way for (probably an elder) Mystic to locate things without Auspex.

Quote :: No matter how many times it happened, Polonia always found himself somewhat startled at the transitionless appearance of the envoys. One moment they were not there, the next they were—speaking, or taking, or touching.

Polonia turned quickly, but not so quickly that the other had not already taken his elbow to usher him to his chair. The sensation was not unlike sawing through bone. He disengaged as politely as he could manage and took his place at the table.

And now, the "envoys..." mysterious guys, to say the least. It's not stated clearly, apparently, but to me, the envoys are humanoid shadow-shapes that act independently of any physical form--in other words, living shadows... but their (or it's, rather, since there's only one example) high level of social aptitude humanizes them in my mind. Also, there's no mention of any truly specific or unnatural shape, so I feel the author is just trying to avoid the obvious by not literally calling them sourceless, living shadows.

Quote :: “Ah…” the envoy replied with escalating interest. There was a flutter of a breeze and a shadow seemed to break away and stretch toward the apple. Suddenly, a brilliant flash illuminated the room. Tatters of shadow streaked in all directions and then fell to the floor in a gentle rain of scorched confetti. The explosion of light and its aftermath were accompanied by a complete and unsettling silence.
Polonia settled back in his chair. There were no further stirrings, no further signs of color, of vibrancy

And here we see the envoy casually set the incendiary off without any fear, and neither does Polonia react in any way. Either the Explosion was only meant to blind with a flash of light (according to the description); or it was a dud, not enough to hurt anybody but whoever held or bit it; or the tenebrous realm muffled or altered the explosion somehow, rendering it harmless. What do you think happened here?

Quote :: Polonia had expected the voice to come from one of the corners of the room, where the shadows had fled. He was disappointed as the form materialized directly before him, standing atop the table. It made a low bow.

the envoy can A) materialize, even within the non-physical, Umbra-like "tenebrous realm," the envoys stills can be "material" or "not." B) Stand. C) Bow, and bow low, too.

This leads me to believe that A) the envoy, or envoys, are always there, tenebrous realm or not, visible or not. B) & C) the envoy has legs with which to stand and bow, which is part of my "humanoid" envoy theory.

Quote :: “Will Borges be in attendance, then?”
“Yes, of course. You will see him yourself. He will be seated directly opposite me. There.” Polonia gestured to the far end of the table where a crude wooden stool half leaned against the table leg. There was a truncheon of stale bread and a tin cup sitting before the stool.
Polonia smiled at this further contrivance of the shadow realm. He was well acquainted with the subtle alterations these environs worked upon the eye of the beholder, images carefully arranged to flatter, to tempt, to cajole.

two key words are reinforcing my theory that the Tenebrous Realm is not "naturally occurring" so-to-speak, but rather individually created pocket-realms created by Obtenebration, or Abyss Mysticism users. "Contrivance" and "arranged." Contrivance means something created, made by another or oneself. Arranged insinuates specific, pre-meditated design by some unknown party. Both of these words, used to describe the Tenebrous Realm, lead me to believe somebody is creating "tenebrous realms" just so kindred can go there and communicate with envoys... or the envoy.

Quote :: He found himself once again thinking of the strange omens worked in blood and candlewax at the threshold of the twilit realm—reflections of desires and fears made manifest. Visible emanations of things that were hidden or, more accurately, concealed.

This is interesting, because it's part of the reason I asked if this was all one big ritual or actually two separate procedures? It also implies that the envoy or envoys can influence the answers one can get from shadow-mancy.

Quote :: An uncomfortable silence fell in the shadowy throne room. It was the envoy that broke the silence.
“And what of the regent? Does she send no representative to the council?”
“The regent?” Polonia lowered his voice. “Our Most Distinguished Excellency is content to remain unavoidably engaged in Mexico City. No, she has made it quite clear that she is taking no hand whatsoever in such ‘regional squabblings.’”
“Ah, but she could not remain uninterested in anyone who could bring the feuding warbands together and drive the Camarilla from Atlanta…Such a one would certainly be well on his way to winning a cardinal’s throne.”

So... wtf is up with the envoy and its true Master? Why the hell do they care what the politics of the Sabbat are? I'm again lead to believe that the Tenebrous Realm is really just something created by some mysterious, powerful third party that manipulates Lasombra/Obtenebration-users/Abyss mystics/whatever. Kind of like a Wizard of Oz thing--there's some guy behind a curtain so-to-speak.

Quote :: Polonia could feel the seat shift beneath him, expanding, bearing him upward. He made a dismissive gesture with the flat of his hand and the motion ceased.

And what the hell is this? did the realm do that, or Polonia, or the envoy? and why? a natural side-effect, or a bad reaction to Polonia's previous words?

Quote :: The envoy cast an admiring eye over the precise arrangements. It paused, its shadowy hand eclipsing the placecard to Polonia’s left.

envoys got eyes and hands, now, too.

Quote :: “What worries me more,” Polonia replied, “is that Moncada might be willing to sacrifice all—his followers, his allies, victory in Atlanta itself—for some greater advantage. The cardinal weighs out his gains and losses very carefully, but I cannot see his shadowy scales and I mistrust them greatly.” He pressed on. “How does a victory in Atlanta measure up against the possibility of destabilizing the North American Sabbat? Of weakening the regent’s New World power base? Of depriving her of her nearest allies? It is quite possible that Moncada’s emissary comes not to bolster but to betray our war effort.”
If Polonia had hoped to startle some reaction from his shadowy companion, he was disappointed. The envoy merely nodded, accepting this new information without comment or censure. After a pause, the shade asked somewhat distractedly, “...

This is interesting, because it shows that the envoys and their Master know things, since they cannot be said to be emotionless--they carry on a conversation easily like a normal person.

Quote :: Moncada was a Lasombra, a shadowmancer like Polonia himself...

Polonia considers himself in the same class as Moncada (if perhaps not in the same league). This, to me, signifies that Polonia is an Abyss Mystic, but perhaps only a dabbler (or relative newbie), or very secretive about it.

Quote :: Polonia fixed the envoy with a gaze that allowed for no argument. “I will be relying upon you to neutralize this threat.”
“How may I assist you in this matter?”

Polonia unwrapped a small, tattered piece of cloth. Until recently, it had been a delicate, perfumed silk handkerchief. Now it resembled nothing more than a scrap of hooded mask a leper might use to cover his deformity.
Inside the folds of burlap shone a brilliant glare of silver light. The envoy shrank back instinctively.
Polonia held out his hand, his face half-averted from the newborn star in his palm. Reluctantly, the envoy took the proffered parcel and hastily rewrapped it.

“You will position yourself here.” Polonia pushed himself up and moved one place to his left. His hands rested on the chairback before the place marked ‘Vykos’. The frame of the chair seemed to be crafted entirely of gleaming white bones, cracked off sharply at the top. Polonia unheedingly wrapped his hands around the jagged edges. His knuckles showed white with the intensity of his concentration.
“The silver will strike true—even through the barrier that separates the two rooms.” He brought one hand down and around in a leisurely arc and tapped at the empty space where the guest’s throat would be.
“Do not hesitate to strike should I signal you. The touch of the silver will do you no lasting harm. Nothing, certainly, compared to my anger should you fail me.”
“We shall not fail you,” the envoy replied, still holding the deadly parcel at arm’s length.
“You never have done so before. Please send my respects to your lord and master and tell him that Polonia has the honor to remain his good and faithful servant.”

And then it gets interesting again. It appeared to me as if Polonia was at least forced to act subservient to the envoy, as he was literally put in the chair by the envoy before he knew what was happening, and "politely as he could" loosened his arm from the envoys unpleasant grip. Now, all of the sudden, Polonia's making mean-faces and giving orders like he's the man... and the envoy just takes it all in stride, like "whatever man." EVEN THOUGH it is obviously made uncomfortable by the presence of mere silver. (Although, I wonder if it was enchanted or something, since silver means nothing to a vampire, who was the main target.)

Quote :: With that, Polonia turned and reached up to touch the corpse, which still swayed gently behind the throne. One brief sideward step and he was back through the barrier and in his own world once again.

looks like "touching the corpse" is part of the process of getting to and from the Tenebrous Realm.

Quote :: A voice whispered in Polonia’s ear, the voice of the envoy from the shadow-walking ritual he had enacted only two short nights ago. “It is done, master. I am bidden to ask you to come among us again at your earliest convenience. We have much news to discuss and we now have a boon to ask of you in return.”

When Polonia did not object, the envoy pressed on. “Think upon your wretched servant and have pity. It would be callous indeed for you to stay away longer than it takes for this wound—which I have received in your service this night—to heal. I have suffered the touch of silver for your sake. Come to us soon.”

Polonia rubbed his temples and nodded. The voice was gone as quickly as it had come. He knew that no one else had overheard, that no one else could have overheard. What concerned him more at this moment was Vykos.

And now here, the envoy starts making demands on Polonia, who seems to want to ignore the envoy, which makes the envoy press on. He tries to manipulate Polonia into continuing to deal with the envoy, and to do so again soon. Meanwhile Polonia threatens the envoy into doing what he requests. In addition, Polonia at least pays lip service to the envoy's master, in such a way that insinuates Polonia and the envoy's master are at least equal in power or station. It appears the Polonia/envoy's Master relationship is mutually beneficial, and that the chance to booss around envoys are part of Polonia's deal.

Quote :: It sounds like the place does exist in space, but changes according to what the envoys/their master knows about the person enacting the ritual.

Perhaps, but like I got into above, I think it functions like a penumbra-type of place. I'd like to discuss in more detail just WHO exactly is "contriving & arranging" the tenebrous realm for Polonia.

Quote :: Also, Polonia calls himself the servant of the master of the envoys, but a) this is a figure of speech that was used during most of Polonia's existence and could be meant as exactly that...the old-fashioned way of saying "send him/her/it my regards" and b) his threats toward the envoy mean that there must be some form of punishment he could enact if he's displeased.

Note also that the envoy stopped and made Polonia agree to visit it again soon before leaving after attacking Vykos as "ordered." Note that Polonia seemed almost childlishly stubborn and had to be forced to say "yes," basically.

Quote :: They can't have much power over the material/mortal world by themselves, as they seem to work with Faustian deals and devilish temptation.

Actually, the envoy was able to attack a physical target far easier than Polonia was, and with no problem due to any "barrier between worlds/rooms."

Quote :: Quote:
“Will Borges be in attendance, then?”
“Yes, of course. You will see him yourself. He will be seated directly opposite me. There.” Polonia gestured to the far end of the table where a crude wooden stool half leaned against the table leg. There was a truncheon of stale bread and a tin cup sitting before the stool.
Polonia smiled at this further contrivance of the shadow realm. He was well acquainted with the subtle alterations these environs worked upon the eye of the beholder, images carefully arranged to flatter, to tempt, to cajole.

two key words are reinforcing my theory that the Tenebrous Realm is not "naturally occurring" so-to-speak, but rather individually created pocket-realms created by Obtenebration, or Abyss Mysticism users. "Contrivance" and "arranged." Contrivance means something created, made by another or oneself. Arranged insinuates specific, pre-meditated design by some unknown party. Both of these words, used to describe the Tenebrous Realm, lead me to believe somebody is creating "tenebrous realms" just so kindred can go there and communicate with envoys... or the envoy.

I just read this part not a long time ago, and i had a few idea on my own
It seem to me that from the text, it's not as much the creation of a carefully arranged realm but the twisted reflection of the earth in an seemingly carefully arranged designed. It seem to me everything is more vivid there. Threat hidden in darkness (darkness of the mind as well) are more visible, hidden desire more tempting. What's obvious in earth is not important there... Maybe u could even see human in a way showing the desire that will led them to oblivion/downfall/death. something akin to the ghost's deathsight ?
Anyway the pre-arrangement seem to me like a temptaion of your own. The Kue-jin could go to their own pocket hell... the shadow world could be something similar. All represed desire, all hidden threats, dark places.... And of course All means to produce Light. So a flashbang or and incendiary grenade (in fact most explosives) hidden should be quite obvious, something in red as it is a threat to the realm itself (no shadow no realm)...
All this is more real for someone studying the other side of the world: the shadow world where everything hidden comes to light.
that's my interpretation of the scene, and I think it fit well with the fact that the path of night help revel repressed/hidden secrets. "Confess me your deepest shame my son...".
So the realm should be something tempting even to mystic because it is as much showing thing's in darkness, as it's revealing your own hidden desires. the "Arranged" part is for the fact that it's always looking according to the person looking. It's a bit of your own hell, your hidden deisre surfacing to tempt you as if it was planed by someone that knew you perfectly to tempt you, but it's your own darkness(sub conscious) that is reflecting there.
In fact I would tend to think that except for real world patch of light there is no other "contrivance" than his own mind.

About the envoy I alway thought it was something akin to the shadow twin power. A better version or a ritual designed to improve it. For me it would explain the knowledge of the politics & the reference to the master it serve.
Maybe it's some help from the one training Polonia in the Dark Arts... Or Maybe he gained support from some Abyss Mystic.

slightly different from the way I look at it. What, specifically, makes you think that the tenebrous realm is a reflection of his own dark thoughts, rather than twisted, perhaps in some way by the envoy or even Envoy's Master? I think the idea of "the observer affects the observed" is cool and it works, but it would have to work both ways I would think... and since the envoy's Master is the most mysterious figure in our equation, it stands to reason that he gains the most from all of this... hence I think the tenebrous realm could be as you say, except that it is only made possible by Obtenebration/Abyss Mysticism & the envoy's Master... which in turn would mean that the Master spies on those who access "his" tenebrous realm, and also influences those he spies on. Kind of a loose theory, but... what do we think?

Also, the fact that the threat inside the apple was an incedendiary is just a coincidence, it could easily have been a weapon of some kind (or possibly contained a weapon inside it), or it could have been a poisoned apple. Both Polonia and the envoy offer up suggestions as to what the threat of the apple could be.

Finally, I agree that the envoy is actually something most similar to a Shadow Twin... but WHOSE Shadow Twin? lol. I vote that it is the Master's Shadow Twin.

Here's another question.

Is there actually more than one envoy in the tenebrous realm, or is there just the one?

Here's another thought, perhaps this whole big deal with a tenebrous realm and envoys and all that is just progressive layers of simple Sciomancy (Shadowmancy), the ultimate (level 5) of which allows a shadow twin one can debate politics with... perhaps the shadow twin knows everything you don't, like some crazy, Star Trek-ian mirror-universe?

In this view, Sciomancy/Shadowmancy would be three collective rituals, each of which builds upon the one before it, until the ultimate result is achieved... bartering with an assassin that also enjoys gossiping and scheming... hell this could be one's own "Shadow," though unlike a Wraiths'. This Abyssal Shadow would be devoid of any Beast-like tendencies because it is simply the Abyssal nature of the kindred, not their beast. (Think of it like an "Elemental" based on "Darkness," and the description of that element is the same as the list of things the Abyssal Specialty in Occult can grant one, PLUS the description of the Bearing/Aura of the Path of Night--...wow... um stfu me, back to the point!)

Phase/Ritual ONE: Dririmancy (its a real word, according to Wikipedia...) - divination by interpreting dripping blood
Phase/Ritual TWO: The Tenebrous Realm - a "Penumbra"-like Obtenbrous "place" representing or own but revealing threats and possibly more
Phase/Ritual THREE: The Master's Envoy - summons an"envoy" with which one can communicate, barter and seek answers, or even bend to tasks of one's own command

what say us now?

Quote :: What, specifically, makes you think that the tenebrous realm is a reflection of his own dark thoughts, rather than twisted, perhaps in some way by the envoy or even Envoy's Master?

I don't say I'm right about this I just think it's consistent to think that way, never decisive since it's only a novel

1) what we know about the realm you reach through shadow step 6:
_it extend in every shadow, u can acces any shadow within eyesight
p. 201 D.A. it state that it's kind of a hell, and 25 yard = a step.
u can grab distan objects as if they where close by
So space is quite twisted there but it exist
2) The descent into darkness ritual is using the shadow step power
It's reaching something akin to an Astral Plane
U need darksight to peer into the world in the dark places.

Now I bring this close to the idea that the realm is kind of the negative film of the world
In there u see everything in an opposite way that would be things in plain sight/things hidden:
_The concept of darksight is to see things that are in the dark as they are in light
_The Concept of the path of night is to bring the hidden fact of the mind in the light of the confession

If u want to start to considere what information/landscape could bring the realm of shadow/Abyss It seem fair to me that it should keep on the same logic and reveal what's hidden while hiding what's obvious (Ahriman is the father of the twisted thought).

I would be more akin to think that the realm's very existence is tied to the existence of shadows more than the creation of some kind of being (except maybe Weaver/Wyrm/Wild).
But I would certainly considere the fact that it might be twisted (to some point) by Lasombra (maybe he became part of the world as it's ruler) I don't see him creating the realm, because Abyss is supposed to exist even before creation)

As any umbral realm, more than a place, it's a concept. As with any concept it gives idea to the rules that will embody it.

So here's a bunch of things on Ahriman on the wiki that i took in order to consolidate my point of view

Quote :: in Yasna 45.2—the "more bounteous of the spirits twain" declares angra mainyu to be its "absolute antithesis".

Quote :: A similar statement occurs in Yasna 30.3, where the antithesis is however aka mainyu, aka being the Avestan language word for "evil". Hence, aka mainyu is the "evil spirit" or "evil mind" or "evil thought, as contrasted with spenta mainyu, the "bounteous spirit" with which Ahura Mazda conceived of creation, which then "was"."

Quote :: The aka mainyu epithet recurs in Yasna 32.5, when the principle is identified with the daevas that deceive humankind and themselves. While in later Zoroastrianism, the daevas are demons, this is not yet evident in the Gathas: In Zoroaster's view the daevas are "wrong gods" or "false gods" that are to be rejected, but they are not yet demons

Quote :: Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu battle for possession of khvaraenah, "divine glory" or "fortune". In some verses of the Yasna (e.g. Yasna 57.17), the two principles are said to have created the world, which contradicts the Gathic principle that declares Ahura Mazda to be the sole creator and which is reiterated in the cosmogony of Vendidad 1. In that first chapter, which is the basis for the 9th–12th-century Bundahishn, the creation of sixteen lands by Ahura Mazda is countered by the Angra Mainyu's creation of sixteen scourges such as winter, sickness and vice. "This shift in the position of Ahura Mazda, his total assimilation to this Bounteous Spirit [Mazda's instrument of creation], must have taken place in the 4th century BC at the latest; for it is reflected in Aristotle's testimony, which confronts Ariemanios with Oromazdes (apud Diogenes Laertius, 1.2.6)."

On the french wiki i also found this:
(Ahriman) Il conférerait aux humains une intelligence froide et abstraite dénuée de sentiments, il les rendrait prosaïques et philistins, et amoraux.
"Ahriman gives to human a cold & abstract intellect without feeling, turning them pragmatic, behaving like phillistines and amoral being."
It's close to the description of the combo power "clarity of emptyness"

So that's how it seem coherent to me
_Other side of reality (Reflection of the creation in an opposite way)
_Emphasis on rationnal deduction (Mind process enhanced)
_Doesn't get touch by moral or desire (No Super Ego or Id) so everything seem equally desirable.
_Not evil on a fundamental level
_Show what's hidden in the Dark (as a concept it mean reveal secret thought as well)

From all that I jump to the idea that if the mystic is not influenced by his (secret) desires but in this shadow world he see them as they become exterior to him. Maybe in fact it's just the author trying to give this feeling of dissociation through a description (not conclusive but seem also possible)

Again that doesn't mean i right or that the Dark Father (Lasombra) could not be twisting the realm on top of it since he became one with it.

Quote :: Also, the fact that the threat inside the apple was an incedendiary is just a coincidence, it could easily have been a weapon of some kind (or possibly contained a weapon inside it), or it could have been a poisoned apple. Both Polonia and the envoy offer up suggestions as to what the threat of the apple could be.

I don't know, certainly in the context...
Anyway taken as u say it seem to me more a Entropy power level 1: Identify weakness in a pattern
Rather than an Time effect: divination of the future.

If u want to emphasis on the divination part, u should link it to entropy, since the Abyss seem to me linked more closely with Entropy than with Time... (that's why i suggested Deathsight as a model)

Quote :: Finally, I agree that the envoy is actually something most similar to a Shadow Twin... but WHOSE Shadow Twin? lol. I vote that it is the Master's Shadow Twin.

lots of clients for the title there, can't guess wich one... I think there is a good knowledge of the south american continent coming from the shadow twin... Maybe it could be a start
Could it be Lasombra through his puppet Gratiano ?

If u want to go on the shadow twin thing I like the idea that it's ur shadow (even thougt i'm not sure in the text)

For the Shadowmancy part, u might want also to explain the knowledge gained by the part of knowledge hidden/lost in the mind of humanity. It links somehow the Abyss & the malkavian network... Maybe the Kyasid is the link between them since Malkav is in Arcadia (Paradise or Fae realm ?)

God, haven't read that book in ages, it's nice to have the memories refreshed.
When Polonia says Shadowmancer I'm pretty sure he means a Lasombra, someone who wields Obtenebration. Atleast that's how I read it. His problem was that Vykos was a Tzimisce, and he would think that a Lasombra would atleast send another Lasombra.
Lets not ignore Children of the Night which is more canon than any novel. Polonia has only Occult 1 and no knowledges in any type of rituals, abyss mysticism or thaumaturgy. Neither is there any type of hint in his background story that supports that he would be an Abyss Mystic.
I would instead focus on the Envoys and their powers. Maybe they are the source of why Polonia can do some of the stuff that he can do. But it's their power, not his. They are clearly powerful creatures and I believe that Polonia is just a tool. They surely seem to have great political interest and for some reason stuff to gain.

...or their master is the source of the power.

In children of the night there is a part though at the end of Polonias background story that I find interesting.

Quote :: At this point, Polonia has earned command over all of the Sabbat's operations on the East Coast. Of course, success only rarely meets with approval, while failure earns vast attention; the loss of New York City to the Camarilla's desperate counteroffensive tends to overshadow the fact that Polonia has managed to acquire control over Atlanta, northern Florida, the Carolinas and indeed, most of the Mid-Atlantic seaboard. Still, New York is the richest prize of all, and until Polonia can retake it - assuming he is allowed time and the resources with which to do so - there will be whispers in the shadows about him.

What I find interesting is the last sentance. This choice of words in this sentance might been used to make the text sound more "cool", and what they really mean is that he's a discussed topic among Lasombra which would ofc make sense. Or it could refer to things within the darkness that has political interest in him, like the envoys and their master. I'm guessing a failure from Polonia's part would damage the grand scheme and they wouldn't be very happy. For me, it probably means both.

I don't know if you agree but the best way to approach Polonia in my opinion would be to make a section where it's listed the things we do know about him, and not make assumptions and guesses. We know that Polonia probably isn't an Abyss Mystic, we know that he make deals with some type of envoys from another realm who serves a mysterious master who has a unknown political agenda. We know that Polonia has access to a realm known as The Tenebrous Realm but we don't know how. etc.
Why should he be in the book at all if he's not an abyss mystic? Cuz he clearly serves something from another realm (probably the abyss), or he serves someone powerful enough to use another realm to do his bidding (possibly a powerful Abyss Mystic). He is either a tool for the Abyss or an Abyss Mystic.

That's just my theories and opinions, what do you guys think/feel?

Quote :: I don't know if you agree but the best way to approach Polonia in my opinion would be to make a section where it's listed the things we do know about him, and not make assumptions and guesses. We know that Polonia probably isn't an Abyss Mystic, we know that he make deals with some type of envoys from another realm who serves a mysterious master who has a unknown political agenda. We know that Polonia has access to a realm known as The Tenebrous Realm but we don't know how. etc.
Why should he be in the book at all if he's not an abyss mystic? Cuz he clearly serves something from another realm (probably the abyss), or he serves someone powerful enough to use another realm to do his bidding (possibly a powerful Abyss Mystic). He is either a tool for the Abyss or an Abyss Mystic.

Mostly, I do agree with that
It doesn't seem that Polonia is an true abyss mystic... It seem to me he has a few knowledge of it, Maybe a small bunch of rituals at most (at best I think he's at an intermediary level). But I don't feel he dedicated his life to learn the Mystical part of obtenebration like Moncada secluded in his lair (Moncada would be a real master. Polonia is more of a King/conquerer than a mystic). On the other hand he do seem to have powerful allies among the Abyss mystic followers.

That's my pov but on the character. But that interpretation could be bended if there's need to.

Posts : 1 Join date : 2012-07-10

Hi
everyone,

I really enjoyed reading all your theories on this scene. Here's my take on
what the novel shows us, and I apologize in advance if it ends up being a
really long post, but I don’t get around to posting online very often and then it
all just comes out at once.

Probably the use of blood and fire in rituals and spells are some of the oldest
magical practices in the world. To me it seems quite clear that the use of the
Toreador's blood dripping onto the flame is part of what gives Polonia access
to the 'tenebrous realm'. Blood and fire connect, he touches the source of
these ingredients and then shadow-steps, sideways. So the way I see it, yes,
the victim’s body is what somehow allows him to step into and out of the realm.

Seeing as Polonia comes from a time that was full of superstitious beliefs and
divining rituals and such, I wonder how much of his fanciful interpretation of
the wax and blood spatters on the floor is just that. I took this part as a bit
of 'setting the scene'—the author gives us more of an insight into Polonia's
inner workings and makes the whole scene a bit more mystical. Not to say that I
don’t think this sort of ritual could exist, I just don’t think that it’s
actually part of the ritual he’s performing in this scene.

So IMHO,
the questions whether these are two separate rituals and whether he only
resorts to entering the dark realm upon finding no certainty in the
blood-and-wax drippings can both be answered with a big ‘No’. I’m sure that it
was his main or only intention to speak with the envoy and get his insurance
against Vykos.

The use of
the word ‘shadowmancer’: actually, I figured this was just another term the
author used for the Lasombra, since you could definitely argue that manipulating shadows and summoning forth the darkness of the Abyss can already
be seen as ‘shadow-magic’. This is basically a big part of the introduction of
the Lasombra clan in the novel series (the only time they are featured
previously is from a Cammie perspective as they are plunged into darkness and
attacked, I believe), so that’s another reason I took this as a literary device
to familiarize the reader with what a Lasombra is and does. I see Polonia as a
military leader and soldier first and a politician and arrogant, power-hungry
bastard second (hey, I like the fella; this is no judgment ^^). To me, he’s
only a mystic or scholar if you stretch the term quite far—his mastery of
Obtenebration makes him a badass fighter and ensures his survival, and this
ritual clearly serves his political goals.

The nature
of the envoys: my take is that there are countless envoys, and that they are
something akin to a hive mind, but at the same time retain some individuality.
They’re equipped with a certain measure of free will and autonomy but strongly
connected to one another, the realm they occupy, and their master (who is most
likely also their creator). And yes, they seem to be humanoid in shape and able
to perform most movements a human can. I see them in my mind as slim,
androgynous shadow-humans with very faintly glowing eye-shapes. Their form is a
bit vague and variable, but they have a basic form they rarely deviate from
(although they probably can, and it’s entirely possible that they only take on
this shape to communicate with visitors). I also picture them to have barely
visible features that can sometimes be glimpsed in the form of even more
concentrated darkness, such as the suggestion of a shadowy jawline, etc. All
envoys look and sound the same. Silver is one of the few things that can hurt
them.

The silver
knife: Why would he give the envoy a silver knife when this hurts the envoy,
thus making the boon he owes a bigger one? Certainly the silver has no special
effect on the intended victim, Vykos, and as silver isn’t exactly the hardest
metal, I can think of no benefits this would bring. So my theory is: silver is
needed in this case because it can ‘cut through the realms’. The envoy would
not be able to use an object of steel or stone on the mortal plane, so that’s
why the knife is silver and the envoy simply can’t avoid sustaining a wound in
performing this service. This also addresses what Gattison said in response to
my theory that the envoys aren’t terribly powerful on our plane (that the envoy
was able to attack Vykos more easily than Polonia): the only reason he didn’t
do it himself is the shitstorm (both physical and political) he’d unleash by
attacking Moncada’s emissary (in the presence of Shadow Legionnaires, no less).
There’s a bunch of raving Vykos-fans turning the meeting into a gore-fest
sideshow, and this way he takes the wind out of Vykos’ sails without revealing
that he is involved.

As for your
questions about why the envoys/their master care about politics and why
Polonia’s chair is suddenly rising, Gattison: I don’t believe they care so much
about politics in that sense. I believe they care about what Polonia cares
about because that means they can make deals with him, manipulate him, play to
his desires and fears to gain power over him. And the politics of the Sabbat
are what’s on his mind all night, every night. When his chair rises, note how
just before that the envoy says “Ah, but [the regent] could not remain
uninterested in anyone who could bring the feuding warbands together and drive
the Camarilla from Atlanta…Such a one would certainly be well on his way to
winning a cardinal’s throne.” The envoy and by extension the realm itself are
sweet-talking Polonia, trying to grab him by his ego. It doesn’t take a genius
to figure out that he’s all “Next Stop: Cardinal” in his mind if one knows
anything about his biography, so the rising throne is meant to make him
envision what the envoy is suggesting, to fuel the fire of his ambition (the
more powerful Polonia becomes, the more he can do for the envoys and their
master, so it’s a win-win to them). He dismisses the rising throne with a wave
of his hand as if to say “Yeah, yeah, back to the matters at hand—I’m way
beyond being influenced by clumsy flattery like this”, and voila, the throne
stops expanding again.

The nature
of the tenebrous realm: my best guess is that this is something like the
antechamber to the Abyss itself. If shadow-stepping takes one through the
Abyss, then it could make sense that this ritual and the sideways shadow-step
(combined with the right knowledge and intent, of course) can take someone onto
the threshold of the Abyss. Both the Abyss AND the mortal plane exist here
simultaneously and at the same time it is neither, explaining why it resembles
the world we know but also bends to the will of the envoys. They are ‘in
between’, possibly able to enter our world or the Abyss proper from there. Even
though its appearance is so variable, I don’t believe that this tenebrous realm
is a ‘piece’ of its creator or something that the visitor to the realm actually
creates him- or herself. At least the description in the novel makes it seem
quite clearly like the realm exists at all times, in a parallel dimension of
sorts, but that the border between the two sides is only permeable under
certain circumstances and to a limited extent. Perhaps the explanation as to
what happened with that incendiary apple is also to be found somewhere in this
line of thought, but it still confuses me. Where is the apple? In the dark realm? In the conference room? Both? The ‘scorched confetti’ falling after the apple has gone off
seemed to me like an envoy getting blown up, but how that would not be grounds
for a greater boon than the wound caused by silver, I’m not sure. Perhaps the
envoy simply reformed, and as I said earlier, silver is one of the very few
things that can truly hurt them in a more permanent fashion.

The
master of the envoys: I have nothing but speculation, of course, but whatever
or whoever this master is, it would make sense for this creature to be confined
to the Abyss—this is why the master resorts to using the envoys and the envoys
manipulate those on our plane. What could the master’s agenda be? Well, I’ve
always found it quite logical that someone who rules darkness itself but is
also confined to it would be strongly driven towards spreading that darkness
everywhere else. Basically Augustus Giovanni’s agenda minus ghosts, plus shadows—or
any Lasombra’s dream (in a ‘careful what you wish for’ sort of way, of course).

The fact
that there is nothing in the actual canon material to suggest that Polonia is a
scholar of the Abyss (although I find Occult 1 quite hard to believe seeing as
so much of Obtenebration relies on an understanding of the occult, and Polonia
has considerable experience in this discipline), combined with the in-depth
discussion of political matters has me thinking that the envoys/the ‘Dark
Master’ actually contact powerful people such as Polonia of their own accord
and try to gain influence over them. This would explain how someone with very
little interest in the arcane arts could still come into regular contact with
them. Still, I’d also see it as entirely realistic that a powerful Lasombra of
several centuries’ age could get his hands on the necessary knowledge to
perform this ritual without actually being an Abyss Mystic.

A name for the realm: I know others have theorized that this realm is something like a pocket of darkness created by the caster of the ritual. As explained above, I don't think this is the case, and based on this view of the realm as something more permanent, I thought perhaps it should receive a name. 'The Precipice', perhaps? Another idea I had was 'the Twilight', but that may produce some icky associations...

[Edited to add: I really don't know what's up with the line breaks in this post. I wrote it in MS Word but can't seem to fix it here on the forum. If a mod has any clues, I'd be much obliged.]

Enthuselah wrote:: Seeing as Polonia comes from a time that was full of superstitious beliefs and
divining rituals and such, I wonder how much of his fanciful interpretation of
the wax and blood spatters on the floor is just that. I took this part as a bit
of 'setting the scene'—the author gives us more of an insight into Polonia's
inner workings and makes the whole scene a bit more mystical. Not to say that I
don’t think this sort of ritual could exist, I just don’t think that it’s
actually part of the ritual he’s performing in this scene.

I have to agree. I think that a ritual should consist of 80% bullshit stuff
that may differ from cainite to cainite, depending on the cainite's heritage
and religious belief. And 20% of the
stuff that actually makes the ritual work. Ofc there is never time for this in
gameplay with your friends cuz honestly it would bore most people to death, but
in a novel like this it's a very important mood-setter and like Enthuselah
said, it tells a story about the cainite.

Enthuselah wrote:: So my theory is: silver is needed in this case because it can ‘cut through the
realms’.

That makes sense, awesome theory. If someone is going to write about the
tenebrous realm, that information should probably be in there.

Enthuselah wrote:: I don’t believe they care so much about politics in that sense. I believe they
care about what Polonia cares about because that means they can make deals with
him, manipulate him, play to his desires and fears to gain power over him.

Probably true yes. Great example with the flattering, didn't pick up on that.

Enthuselah wrote:: Both the Abyss AND the mortal plane exist here
simultaneously and at the same time it is neither, explaining why it resembles
the world we know but also bends to the will of the envoys. They are ‘in
between’, possibly able to enter our world or the Abyss proper from there.

Yeah that's how I see it too. If we would say that our world is white and that
the abyss is black, then this realm would probably be the greyscale. And we
learned from cWoD before that nothing is just Black and White, it's never that
easy.

Enthuselah wrote:: The fact
that there is nothing in the actual canon material to suggest that Polonia is a
scholar of the Abyss (although I find Occult 1 quite hard to believe seeing as
so much of Obtenebration relies on an understanding of the occult, and Polonia
has considerable experience in this discipline), combined with the in-depth
discussion of political matters has me thinking that the envoys/the ‘Dark
Master’ actually contact powerful people such as Polonia of their own accord
and try to gain influence over them. This would explain how someone with very
little interest in the arcane arts could still come into regular contact with
them. Still, I’d also see it as entirely realistic that a powerful Lasombra of
several centuries’ age could get his hands on the necessary knowledge to
perform this ritual without actually being an Abyss Mystic.

Yeah that's what I think too.
If I learn by heart several phrases in spanish that will help me as a tourist I
wouldn't say that I know how to speak spanish. I think someone has instructed
him how to perform the things he does, but I don't know if he understands why
he does them.

Enthuselah wrote:: A name for the realm: I
know others have theorized that this realm is something like a pocket of
darkness created by the caster of the ritual. As explained above, I don't think
this is the case, and based on this view of the realm as something more
permanent, I thought perhaps it should receive a name. 'The Precipice',
perhaps? Another idea I had was 'the Twilight', but that may produce some icky
associations...

Oh maybe I have misunderstood something here. Isn't the realm already called
the tenebrous realm?

Enthuselah wrote:: [Edited to add: I really don't know what's up with the line breaks in
this post. I wrote it in MS Word but can't seem to fix it here on the
forum. If a mod has any clues, I'd be much obliged.]

Same problem for me, I paste in from Word.

Subject: Tenebrous Realm, Abyss & the Null Zone Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:16 am

Quote :: Enthuselah wrote:

So my theory is: silver is needed in this case because it can ‘cut through the
realms’.

That makes sense, awesome theory. If someone is going to write about the
tenebrous realm, that information should probably be in there.

Silver is a special kind of metal that is used by by werewolf to make Klaives (aka mystical silver swords).
It's important to know that there is inside the Abyss a source of Silver (the way of Silver) that is well known to have mystical properties (Silver coming from the silver path "is said to be particularly usefull when forging Klaives" cf Umbra the Velvet Shadow p.37)
So it could be wether that this Silver is mystic since it come from the Sliver path, or that the Silver metal has a special property regarding the Abyss...

Quote :: Enthuselah wrote:

Both the Abyss AND the mortal plane exist here
simultaneously and at the same time it is neither, explaining why it resembles
the world we know but also bends to the will of the envoys. They are ‘in
between’, possibly able to enter our world or the Abyss proper from there.

Yeah that's how I see it too. If we would say that our world is white and that
the abyss is black, then this realm would probably be the greyscale. And we
learned from cWoD before that nothing is just Black and White, it's never that
easy.

I'm still on the Idea that this is the Abyss, just a different layer than usual.
I see this as "the backstage" of earth in the Abyss. A place where u can see the scene, even interact a bit with it but you're hidden from most sight... A place that could be similar to that is the Null Zone.

The Null Zone

_Umbra the Velvet Shadow p.94

Spoiler:

_Infinite Tapestry p.29

Spoiler:

_Book of Worlds: p.52-53 & p.189

Spoiler:

The Abyss

_UtVS p.36-40

Spoiler:

_Book of Worlds p. 56-59 & p.190

Spoiler:

The Theater of the Mind

_Infinite Tapestry p.55-56

Spoiler:

Imho, even if there is a few contradictions (more akin to the degree of strength of an effect), most of these descriptions fits together:

_The Null Zone being here close to the Deep Caves of the Abyss. They must be linked somehow since there is many similar caracteristics in the way they behaves.
_The Zone is a backtage where u could see everywhere, where spirits that are only shades of their former self roam aimlessly... This is to bring close to the Depressive effect of the Abyss (it's working on anyone). The magnet effect that trap spirits in the Abyss seem close to the one that prevent spirits to leave through a window of the Null Zone. Plus a lot of junk litter the floor (no so far from lost things in the Abyss)
_In the Null Zone, the only lights seem to come only from the windows peeking into the world.
_The elemental routes of the wyrck path (cf. in the Null Zone) could be something identical/close to the path of Silver, Gold, Iron, Steel & Soil. The routes are there since creation so they should be build/linked to something that was there even before creation...
_2 paths in the the Abyss, the way of Steel and the way of Soil, are close to the deep caves (because they are beyond the bridge of despair). The way of Steel is linked to the cities, the Weaver and lost tools; The way of Soil is linked to earth's nature, the Wyld and dead plants...
@gattison: this could also be the reason of the two different night spirits: the one from Axis Mundi possessing "Forest Sense" as a power and the other from Umbra the VSh, possessing instead "Realm Sens" & "Create Shadow"
_Both places have similar difficulty performing magic... The Null Zone is more restrictive but it could be link to the fact that it's deeper into the realm...
_Finally, lets not forget also that in mage and the rest of the wod most descriptions fits the paradigm of the writer: Garou, mage & vampire won't see exactly the same things in the same place or the way they explain it will be different. Add that to the fact that realms with similar things tend to overlap (as the same ideas tend to become 1 idea)

So I believe Vampire using obtenebration might enter the Abyss through the bottom (at least one of the bottom), the part of the Null Zone tied to the deep caves & the backstage of the Theatre of the Mind located in the Astral; while most garou & mage enter it through cracks in the structure of the Umbra. For Lasombra the part of the Null Zone/theatre of the mind witch overlap the Abyss is a backstage located inside the shadows of the whole creation.
For me the Tenebrous realm (if that's the way it is called in the novel) is just an other word for the Abyss, or more precisely the Null Zone/Deep Cave/Backstage of the Theatre of the Mind part that Lasombra reach when they shadowstep...

Ps: Remember that when passing in the Umbra, vampires cannot directly reach the Middle Umbra since their spirit has been torn to shread by the embrace and they lost the link as consequence. That's why they must enter through the Low Umbra with Necromancy or the High Umbra with Auspex... Maybe Lasombra enter the Abyss physically only through the Astral World's connexion to the Abyss (the part of the backstage of the Theatre of the Mind linked to the Null Zone & the Abyss); btw the ritual "descent into darkness" clearly compare Abyssal travel with Astral Travel...

So what do you think ? is it convincing or am I in sheer delusion ? lol!

Agathe De Lannuie wrote:: 2 basic views: First, a being known as the Devourer lives in the spirit world dominated by the Chasm. The tales I found say that a tribe of American Indian sacrificed themselves to kill the Devourer, but the monster's hunger is so great that even death cannot end it. The Chasm seems too eternal for me too believe this story.

Does this remind anybody else of the story of the Croatan (from WtA's history)? It might be interesting if the Croatan's enemy (wasn't it Devourer-of-Souls, or something like that?) is connected to the Abyss Realm, which in turn can be connected to the Abyss

Quote :

Love that idea. In fact, I always like to interpret retcons and revisions as changes in the CWoD. For instance the Assamite blood-curse and the Malkavians' Dementation were retcons that ended up being worked into the story (afaik). Not really an on-topic comment, just something I like to think about, really. When I (finally) sit down and rewrite the Night-Spirit, I'll check out the differences and consider making two different Night-Spirits, or perhaps giving an "alternate traits" option at the end of it or something.

Sorry I can't comment more, but I'm on an unsecure Windows connection now, and I just wanted to pop in and let everyone know my Internet is funked right now, so I'll probably be scarce for a while.

Agathe De Lannuie wrote:: So what do you think ? is it convincing or am I in sheer delusion ?

I'm not really into crossovers since I don't know much about the other games except Vampire. And from previous experiences and debates it seldom works good and it seems like WW never intended it to work either. With that being said, I think you make a really good case here. It makes sense to me atleast.
I feel as you just guided me through the movie Inception cheers

Well I do like crossovers--when they are handled well, which means intelligently and with maybe even a unique spark of inspiration as well. Not to be argumentative with you Anda, but I always feel that the ones who bash crossovers and stuff like that so much are either unimaginative or too closed-minded to see any ways in which it can work, or are focused too much on rules and not on fun and creativity and compromise with other gamers.

I don't care what any book says, the books lie; they present stereotypes and in-character accounts with very little nuggets of actual truth, and far too many people never care to separate the two categories of information. So to me, regardless of what even a magical, almighty SIDE-BAR tells me, it's only all too obvious that Vtm, WtA, MtA, WtO, CtD, HtR, DtF and Orpheus are happening in the same "universe"...possibly the same "multiverse" (though I tend to think the former). I think they just discourage crossovers in the books to keep us in the right mindset for each game... that way when the inevitable crossover does happen (because when you say, "don't do this," people will want to start doing that), it will have a better chance of being presented in a truly CWoD-like fashion.

Umm, sorry for the little rant there, lol.

Back to the point, perhaps these ideas about the Abyss Realm would work nicely if discussed in the Abyssal Locations section? Perhaps as a place one could get lost in if they mess with the Abyss too much (like on a botch). Imagine trying Shadowstep and you get stuck "backstage?" Trippy.

...Oh wow, I just scrolled up. Okay, hopefully in a couple days I can get some time to get the discussion on Polonia started again and then resolved.

Gattison wrote:: Back to the point, perhaps these ideas about the Abyss Realm would work nicely if discussed in the Abyssal Locations section?

I personally don't think it belongs there. Abyssal Locations are specific places in the world which has been tainted by the practise of abyss mysticism or have strong ties to it.
The Realm of the Abyss is much bigger and more important than these places and it probably needs it's own section.

+1
I was thinking of posting more on the Abyssal Realm as a whole and didn't knew were to.
I guess we'll have to make a new topic
I'm in W-E so I'll post more in a few days (same goes for other topic)

Quote :: I don't care what any book says, the books lie; they present stereotypes and in-character accounts with very little nuggets of actual truth, and far too many people never care to separate the two categories of information. So to me, regardless of what even a magical, almighty SIDE-BAR tells me, it's only all too obvious that Vtm, WtA, MtA, WtO, CtD, HtR, DtF and Orpheus are happening in the same "universe"...possibly the same "multiverse" (though I tend to think the former). I think they just discourage crossovers in the books to keep us in the right mindset for each game... that way when the inevitable crossover does happen (because when you say, "don't do this," people will want to start doing that), it will have a better chance of being presented in a truly CWoD-like fashion.

As you might think I fully agree with that statement and I want to support this way of thinking the wod :
One of the main thing is the fact that the owod is actually tied together by the authors at least in a bunch of crossover books:
The "a world of darkness" collection is here to prove it, as they used to put together side by side vampires, magus & shifters.
It may not be the mainstream path but it is a path the owod at least took at one point...
Even if we don't use other gamelines exactly in the way they are presented in the werewolf/Mage(...) books it can still serve as a good inspiration. Sometime there is no need to reinvent the wheel but only to adapt it to our needs... We just have to transform the rules a bit to enhance the connectivity and blur what's not important for our purpose.

I humbly think the approach is at least fertile in idea and has the benefit of not being too "far" from Vampire's world (btw most majors events in a gameline had some kind of effects in an other as they are mentioned from time to time) Ravnos' death is the perfect exemple of this cross over integration (if not clearly acknowledged)

Week of Nightmares:

All that kind of shit (and much more) broke my "keep separate" Vampire's habits. Sometime crossover is too hard to get working and sometime the links are obvious. I think we should be watching for convergent patterns and reject what's not convincing enough... Adapting whatever feels right to us & not having some preconception of what should be included or not as the whole owod is, at the very least, more canonial than what we can write ourselves.

If you want to see some great integration of the Vampire, Werewolf, Mage game concepts go read the Red Death Trilogy and then read The Horizon War (amazing story) and u'll see how good (or bad) the crossover can be. For me it was enlightening... I know that the Red Death book have not been declared fully officials but I don't see any strong reason why they could not be (especially since the Sequel called Horizon War is canonial)... And they show that the concept of the wod can be mixed into an amazing storyline!

btw

gattison:
I think we should also provide an alternate set of rules for Nightmaster for storytellers that does not want to dwell into advanced Werewolves concepts/rules such as Gnosis. Making it a bit more easily integrated with VtM

So, I'm coming late to this thread, and with a question that has absolutely nothing to do with Polonia's power.

It's about his physical features.

One of the main things that makes Polonia stand out when compared to other characters is his physical appearance, sunburned and red. As it is said that he usually dresses in all white or black, with his dark black hair and beard and him being extremely tall, that's a rather imposing figure.

Is there any specific description or mention of his appearance on the novels?

Has Polonia ever been shown to comment or think about it?

I just read Polonia's image in the Children of the Night-book now and I understand why you might wonder. It's been years since I read the novels so I can't recall much from them at all. I have no memory of his sunburned skin ever mentioned, nor his feelings about it. But Like I said, so long so I might've just forgotten. I talk to anarch every now and then so I'll ask him if he knows. He's good with the novels.

I never noticed that but since u mentioned it I checked the CotN and something came to my mind (but it's just a wild guess)
This remind me of a character that was mentioned in the Horizon War novels. One of the bad guy called Terence Shade is the servant of a powerful wyrm lord called Aliara. At the beginning of the 2 novel "the Ascension Warrior" he has burnt mark. While it seem a long shot, Polonia might get what's called "sunburn" from hell itself... Something akin to a demonic investment's drawback.
The Envoy could be really a demon referring to hierarchy... I mean due to the fact the abyss are somehow linked to hell, it's not such a big step to think that a least some Lasombra have actually made the mistake of dealing with demon instead of shades...

That might also just mean he was embrace when he had this sunburn in order to remind him of Lasombra's hate for sun...

I'm sorry as I don't have the novel mentioning Polonia nearby, I might not have been of a lot of help.
btw: I feel that we don't have that much clues about this guy

gaaaaaaaaaaahhh...

I'll come back to this later, I promise, lol

The following text was copied and pasted directly from the only source I could find it using Google-fu. If you know of a more official source or a more up-to-date release, please let us know. Don't "suggest" I contact WW themselves... that's on my to-do list, lol. =)

General Source: The Carpe Noctem website.*
Main Source: The Carpe Noctem Reference Guide: [url=http://carpenoctem-online.com/wiki/index.php?title=Reference_Guide%3A_WHITE_WOLF_SITE_GUIDELINES]White Wolf Fan-Site …

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Allies of the Grey Jackals:
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Echoes of Empires

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Gattison, valismedsen, and I have decided to combine our abilities and formed 'Grey Jackal Fan Productions'. We’re going to be constructing a compendium, book by book for Vampire. As we complete supplements they’ll be edited and slotted into the greater …

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Welcome, to Grey Jackal Fan-Supplements, a group of creative and enthusiastic fans of the Classic World of Darkness. So far, our members from the boards are valismedsen, Anda, DanielPLanman, Gattison, Drkcv, and Ihatealllife.

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