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The Abyss Guide now has a 4-page Character Sheet, and 6 pages of add-ons!

After a temporary hiatus, the Grey Jackal is back in action!


 

 CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling

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Gattison
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PostSubject: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSun Jul 08, 2012 4:06 pm

List of stuff in Chapter:

Abyssal Locations
The Congo
The Black Magister
Laguna de la Sombra, the Lake of Shadows
Mexico City, Mexico
Monçada's Lair, Madrid, Spain

Still Unwritten
Castel d'Ombro
The Dark Monastery
Zadkiel's Well & Caridad's Garden
The Falcon Maasai tribe's area in northern Tanzania

Supposedly a section on The Abyss, including
- What is it?
- What does it do?
- What's inside of it?
- The Abyss and the Lasombra Antediluvian
- Where does it connect to? (see Attachment)
- (most of the above should be able to be answered to some extent by the following excerpt from Possessed's posts, on the WW forum. See Spoiler #1)

Abyss Mysticism in Your Stories
- various scenarios/situations to inspire or be used by ST's.
- we should also probably get somebody to discuss the mood and "theme" of Abyss Mysticism as well, maybe

Merits & Flaws
- the obvious ones and some new ones

In-Character Materials
- books about Abyss Mysticism, to be used in Stories
- some artifacts or something would be cool too (...like, what would happen if you stole a brick or rock from the Castel D'Ombro in Sicily? would it carry a piece of "Abyssal taint" with it?)

Spoiler #1:
Attachments
CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling AttachmentUmbra.jpg
Metaphysical "Map" of the CWoD, provided by Agathe/Mytho
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CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling AttachmentINTERIOR - Map of the Abyss.jpg
Metaphysical "Map" of the Abyss, provided by Agathe/Mytho
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Last edited by Gattison on Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added new Abyssal Locations; Added Agathe/Mytho's 2nd Map)
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PostSubject: The Plan   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSun Jul 08, 2012 6:01 pm

List of stuff in Chapter:

1. The Abyss:
- What is it?
- What does it do?
- What's inside of it?
- The Abyss and the Lasombra Antediluvian
- Where does it connect to? (see Attachment, 1st Post)
- (most of the above should be able to be answered to some extent by the following excerpt from Possessed's posts, on the WW forum. See Spoiler, below)

2. Abyss Mysticism in Your Stories
- various scenarios/situations to inspire or be used by ST's.

3. Merits & Flaws
- the obvious ones and some new ones

4. Abyssal Locations
- The Congo
- The Dark Magister

5. In-Character Materials
- books about Abyss Mysticism, to be used in Stories
- some artifacts or something would be cool too (...like, what would happen if you stole a brick or rock from the Castel D'Ombro in Sicily? would it carry a piece of "Abyssal taint" with it?)

Sections that I feel are missing:
- The unlife of an Abyss mystic
- a word on the relationship between Abyss mystics and others, including the Cam, Sabbat, Anarchs, Black Hand, Friends of the Night, etc. (the "Stereotypes" section)
- enemies of Abyss mystics
- hierarchy (if any) and organizational structure of Abyss mystics (probably really similar to Path of Bones here; learn more, share more, earn more respect)
- the mood and "theme" of Abyss Mysticism

How it should finally be arranged:
1. The Abyss
2. The unlife of an Abyss mystic
3. hierarchy (if any) and organizational structure of Abyss mystics
4. a word on the relationship between Abyss mystics and others, including the Cam, Sabbat, Anarchs, Black Hand, Friends of the Night, etc.
5. enemies of Abyss mystics
6. Abyss Mysticism in Your Stories
7. the mood and "theme" of Abyss Mysticism
8. Merits & Flaws
9. Abyssal Locations
10. In-Character Materials

So, I glanced through the Storytelling sections of one of the only VtM books available to me right now (all the rest are at a friend's house currently)--The Guide to the Sabbat, revised version--and I'm trying to round out our own Storytelling Chapter into a more helpful chapter, comparable to one a reader might find in a real WW book (as is always the goal, of course). The above ideas are what I ended up coming up with, and I'd like to know what the group thinks. Do all the proposed sections feel necessary or not? Helpful or not?

Spoiler:
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeMon Aug 13, 2012 8:34 pm

bump for the edit of the 1st post
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PostSubject: In-Character Abyssal Literature   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeFri Aug 17, 2012 10:25 pm

So, in case we don't remember, I once posted this, and intended to put it in the book:
Leges Abyssi:
The Author of Al Sfih:
...which was originally met with approval. But, even it's not broke, I want to fix it, because it isn't perfect.

One problem I have always had with the text personally was the usage of names created be H. P. Lovecraft. I always wanted to think of cool, original names to use instead, but everything I came up with didn't sound "cool" enough. Now, however, inspiration strikes!

What if we changed the following line from:
"Some time circa 950 AD, a copy of Al Sfih found its way into the hands of another Abyss mystic from Constantinople named Theodorus Philetas."
to:
"Some time circa 950 AD, a copy of Al Sfih found its way into the hands of another Abyss mystic from Greece known only as Birsa." (or, alternately, "...believed to be Birsa or Dido." Just to cast some confusion on things...)

Olaus Wormius was a real person, though, and I like how H. P. Lovecraft either erroneously or purposely has a 300-year gap between the fictional Olaus and the real one. So, I'm not sure if I want to take Olaus out or leave him in...

Next, I think we should replace John Dee with Agathe De Lannuie, meaning instead of this:
"Nor did it—supposedly—prevent a mortal John Dee from translating a copy—presumably into English—though of this copy only fragments remain and unlike other editions, it is believed to have never seen printing."
to
[something specific to Agathe, rather than this, which mentions that John Dee happened to have been a mortal... which was actually something that may be controversial concerning canon, so...

Finally, Ava Mercadante is the name I stuck in there, and would like to keep it in, if we can, but if we need to take it out to fit a more-important Abyss mystic I'm forgetting, then so be it.

(Ava M., btw, is the abandoned ghoul of her missing domitor--Saul, from the "sample stories" in Chapter 1--an Abyss mystic, she is not a mystic herself, but may be one day as she puts together the puzzle pieces of her domitor's disappearance, which of course have a lot to do with Abyss-ism. I kind of want to write a short story about her for the beginning of the book... maybe in journal format, a la Bram Stoker's Dracula...?)

So, basically this post is for Agathe and valis to approve or deny these ideas.

Also, I don't want to offend anybody by saying this, but I don't want to use one of our NPCs as the FIRST author of the book, especially not Byrsa because she's not even Lasombra (again, no offense, meant), so I think we should come up with a cool name to be the "one who started it all." I also don't like the BS name, Abdullah Alha Zrhed, so we need to change this to something more fitting what we know about the history of Abyss mysticism.

Perhaps we could attribute the very first edition to "Zoroaster," rather than "Zarathustra" specifically? Or maybe we should come up with some new name?

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Agathe De Lannuie

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSat Aug 18, 2012 3:22 am

Nice book, I want it in my library study



Quote :
Olaus Wormius was a real person, though, and I like how H. P. Lovecraft either erroneously or purposely has a 300-year gap between the fictional Olaus and the real one. So, I'm not sure if I want to take Olaus out or leave him in...

cool keep it

Quote :
Next, I think we should replace John Dee with Agathe De Lannuie, meaning instead of this:
"Nor did it—supposedly—prevent a mortal John Dee from translating a copy—presumably into English—though of this copy only fragments remain and unlike other editions, it is believed to have never seen printing."
to
[something specific to Agathe, rather than this, which mentions that John Dee happened to have been a mortal... which was actually something that may be controversial concerning canon, so...

I reassure you John Dee was a mortal... but not at that time Twisted Evil
He's embrace in 1608 by the council of 7 after 80 years of life as a Bani Bonisagus (a house of the Order of Hermes cf. Mage: Tradition Book: Order of Hermes, 1st Edition)

I would be honored...
could it be something like:
Nor did it—supposedly—prevent a mysterious Kiasyd only referred as "The Night" from translating a copy—presumably into English—though of this copy only augmented fragments remain and unlike other editions, it is believed to have never seen printing

Not sure about this way of saying that Agathe added some of her reflexions in the margin of her translation
I was wandering where she could be in the beginning of the 19th century... London sounds good for a Kiasyd during the Victorian Age... But maybe it's too late in the global chronology ?

Could she have been dropping the text in the dreams of Lovercraft - but it was so powerful that names where twisted ?
I like the idea that she might play the "Muse" for him and maybe also, in a different way Lewis Carroll...
But i'm not sure its a good idea to brought here

Quote :
I kind of want to write a short story about her for the beginning of the book... maybe in journal format, a la Bram Stoker's Dracula...?

Sound good

Quote :
Also, I don't want to offend anybody by saying this, but I don't want to use one of our NPCs as the FIRST author of the book, especially not Byrsa because she's not even Lasombra (again, no offense, meant), so I think we should come up with a cool name to be the "one who started it all." I also don't like the BS name, Abdullah Alha Zrhed, so we need to change this to something more fitting what we know about the history of Abyss mysticism.

I have an idea but it might be pulling the cover toward Agathe a bit too much
I told you in Agathe's story that she had the avatar of Ut-Napishtam. Avatar are "kind of" spirits tied to a human.
In mage it's vaguely hinted that this is one of the first Mage gaining the secret of Immortality watching humanity (his sons) from far away. He's the equivalent of Noe. Surviving the flod could mean one of the first sailor over the Abyss (a Ocean are deeply connected with the Abyss & many Lasombra like to sail). It could mean god gave him protection/comand over Abys
What I mean is it could be a start of the story hook:
What was immortal was the Avatar, it reincarnated through history... Touching people with insight like the first writer of the Book (even if he wrote the book when he was turned vampire, having like Agathe only a memory of the power this particular Avatar linked to the Abyss and maybe even the Null Zone), Abdullah Alha Zrhed then Brysa could have been in search of the book, Marconius in search of a discussion with the avatar through Agathe.

The thing is if you like the idea we should find way to hint at this while not being too obvious about it.

Quote :
Perhaps we could attribute the very first edition to "Zoroaster," rather than "Zarathustra" specifically? Or maybe we should come up with some new name?

cool that could make a link or we could even go back to Ut-Napishtam himself while hinting that Zarathustra may have possessed it...

btw should we give a name to the Avatar or just play on the confusion ?

let me know if you like it, it might be too complicated jocolor


Last edited by Agathe De Lannuie on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSat Aug 18, 2012 8:45 am

Agathe De Lannuie wrote:

Not sure about this way of saying that Agathe added some of her reflexions in the margin of her translation
I was wandering where she could be in the beginning of the 19th century... London sounds good for a Kiasyd during the Victorian Age...

Byrsa was also in England during the Victorian Age, as many were ofc but maybe we should avoid keeping our two biggest abyss key players in the same country without them mentioning each other in their stories or maybe we should have them mention each other?
Both Victorian Age: Vampire and Victorian Age: Vampire Companion has a really good geography sections that might inspire you to put her elsewhere. Just a suggestion. Smile
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Agathe De Lannuie

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSat Aug 18, 2012 3:39 pm

After Egypt and her search for Nihilistic, she might go for Temporis (aka byrsa)
that might also link her to the Black Hand...
Maybe she could be stealing knowledge from them... or finding a way to their library in Enoch through Byrsa's Scottish Lair

Quote :
Both Victorian Age: Vampire and Victorian Age: Vampire Companion has a really good geography sections that might inspire you to put her elsewhere. Just a suggestion.

At start I was thinking she could try to visit lord camden's Crypt (cf. Giovanni chronicles, a powerful cappadocian) but Byrsa makes more sense.

Could the Scottish lair have been assaulted at some point by a tribe of the local Fianna ? (werewolf tribe linked to the Fae) In the mist of the battle a ghostly white figure with shadows dancing around was seen standing there singing, then while the battle was reaching it's peek she walked, not bothered by any faction, into a dark crack in the groung that was not visible seconds ago.
side note: As Teleportation,aka Path of Praapti, is instantaneous she might be able to get around some temporis use and force respect for a deal with Byrsa or she could just jump in the Umbra to reach to Enoch's library... she might have got hints of the Enoch while in egypt). She could also drop a book or two, as Kiasyd are polite beings that repay what they take...
btw, she has also mean of reading the future and might get byrsa confused for a moment again forcing respect or allowing her to flee.

Just some thought i'm sharing
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Agathe De Lannuie

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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeTue Aug 28, 2012 4:14 pm

I wanted to bring to your eyes an important part of the Mage's conception about the relation between Primordial Darkness, Man and Spirits in the Deep Void

A warning first:
This is from the 5th scenario of the Mage book called Time of Judgement: Ascension. The scenario relate everything going wrong in the creation and the end of the world as demons come to rule the world. The scenario is called "Hell of Earth"... no need to explain the details.
Therefore the interpretation of the position of the leader of the unnamed is a bit radical. In some other story the role they endorse is quite more nuanced. In the 1st scenario: "Judgement" (the most interesting imho) they were seen as devilish but were in fact linked to Psychopmopes leading humanity
I'l post something later on that... For now here the description of Ut-Napishtam

Ps: I'm not sure anymore I should relate Agathe to Ut-Napishtam, what do you think ?

Ut-Napishtam: The Black Man:


Last edited by Agathe De Lannuie on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeTue Aug 28, 2012 7:53 pm

And here is the "moderate" conception about the Abyss/Void, the Unmaned-Neverborn (btw: they are unnamed because thet are neverborn) and the 10th seat:
Even if these a only possible interpretation it is an interesting conception that do not define Abyss as directly Evil. Therefore it is a conception that goes well if we don't want to follow the road: Abyss=Infernalism...
For me its main interest is to show that Abyss is part of the fate of the world anfd it's only a trun over: creation expanded then it has to shrink... it's a tidal phenomenon

The Fallen and the 10th Seat:

While I don't say this end is the one giving all answers to the WW universe, but I do think it's the only WW option that doesn't imply that all Obtenebration/Abyss mystic user MUST be servant of demonic lords and/or corrupted.
And Imho it goes well with the idea underlined in the Road of Night D.A.: They use evil deeds only in the prespective of a grand scheme to redeem sinners... They are servant of the Dark only for a greater good. So while they are servant of Oblivion because they kill to feed as all vampires, when Oblivion will come they will have saved some souls... They are the "Keepers" of mindkind, it's a modern delusion that makes Lasombra think they have to rule Vampires... They where ment to rule Mankind and to lead them wether for good or bad... depend of the interpretation but the Road of Night D.A. suggest Lasombra where not always turned toward Nihilism and pure destruction as the modern ethic of the path of night might suggests. The Road of Night D.A. tend to believe that Lasombra are the Psychopomps of humans, leading humanity to greatness thanks to the power of the Dark while watching for the corrupters. They understood that they should represent both side of the Telos to be perfect. Creatures of the dark, leading humans to the light.

btw:
_Forget Voormas it's just one of the possible avatar of Oblivion but the Black Man is also an other one... That is just some change they made according to the story they were telling
_Telos is the real name of the Red Star mentionned in differents WW book. In fact it's just the symbol of the coming of Ascension/Oblivion/Gehenna. It show that whatever your doing the world is coming fatally come to an end.... Even if this end is not the one you imagined (meaning it's not a total end... something might comes out of this). Showing that Oblivion is not a surprise to try to avoid but a normal cosmological outcome...
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSun Sep 02, 2012 7:34 pm

Another fictitious Abyss-book for players and ST's to get their hands on.

What do we think?

The Testament of Nu:
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeMon Sep 03, 2012 9:04 pm

Two things:

First of all, ^ bump

Secondly: AH CRISIS! My file for chapter 4 is corrupt! I just checked all my other files and they're fine and now have back-ups, but chapter 4 needs to be reconstructed... Mad
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeFri Sep 07, 2012 4:11 am

That sucks man. I have older version of the abyss guide on my computer if that helps?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeWed Sep 19, 2012 4:48 am

Yay! Crisis averted. Somehow my file is not corrupt anymore! Question

Whatever, I'll take it!
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeThu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 am

I didn't had time to answer your post about the Testament of Nu but I do like it a lot.

I have to say this kind of connection between the deep void, the Abys and the primordial Ocean reminds me of the chuloviah... just saying no need to make something out of that
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeTue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 pm

I have the doc, thanks josh, I wanted to modify some of my text

Since here is a workspace I'll try to organize my part of the writing: I'll sum it up so we won't overlap on each other's work (feel free to comment and whatever part you feel like writing)

So I have to do Monçada and Queen Marianna no pb ;-)

I was thinking about writing something about the Road of Night & the Path of Heavenly Abode.

With that there's also a bunch of ajustements about what I already wrote in the "Realm of Darkness, the guide...":
1) I' want to rewrite the "wright and wrong in the eyes of the Abyss" which was meant as a forum opinion. I'll try to divide it into 2 different sidebars:
_One, about the way Monçada was at the origin of the modern path (It'll relate to what was discuss in the topic: CHAPTER 5 & APPENDIX I: Templates & NPC's (aka, Players & Haters). I want to spread the clues about the link between Moncada & Angellis Ater between the part talking about Roads & paths, the text about Monçada and if we do something about Angellis Ater it would be nice to gives hints in this text as well. (btw Anda I don't want to steal Gattison's part if he felt like writing something about them... If not and if he agrees I'll try to pull something out otherwise I could just make a sidebar...).
_The other, about the way you can modulate the level 9 and 10 of the Road of the Abyss with those of the lightless path.

I think it will be more clear that way. Let me know how you feel about that.

Then I'm thinking about modifying the 2 rituals we invented during a chat with josh on the WW board: Binding the Nightshades & Infuse the Abyssal Well.
While I like them I feel Binding the Nightshades might be a bit too complicated to perform & Infuse the Abyssal Well is a bit to complicated to keep tracks of the reduction of ritual's blood cost while combined with the former ritual. I think I'll make them more independent.

The Umbra is more or less always on my "to do" list. bounce

btw Josh, do you want me to re-write the Abyss mysticism and blood sorcery on page 18 of the pdf ? I didn't develop much this theorie would you like me to ? I could write it small but like a note left by Agathe... or not. As always let me know how you feel about this.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeWed Oct 03, 2012 2:03 am

I think all the things you've suggested that you could write are good ideas. Green light across the board, lol. Go for it. =)

Even if we do overlap, we can merge the two parts, so just write what you want and we'll take a look.

There's nothing I can think of right now that I want to write all by myself, except for stuff about my NPC (but even there I'm eager for suggestions), so like I said, just write whatever you want, lol.

I think now it's time for us to start sitting down and reading the entire book as a whole, and see about weaving things together. Like simply mentioning something we did alongside something WW did would be good for that I think. We could also get a sense of the metaplot that way too. (Which makes me think of a new metaplot idea.)
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PostSubject: The Abyss, Stories and Merits & Flaws   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeWed Oct 03, 2012 5:57 pm

Here is part 1 of what I've been working on:
(all BLACK text is stuff I didn't finish going through because it was Agathe's, or it wasn't as organized, so if you want, offer suggestions before I get back to it.)
The Abyss and...:
What do we think of this section now? I honestly think it's lacking that in-character feel, which I labeled it as, so if anybody has any suggestions on how to "spin" the info in the above text (or even leave out), speak up, or forever have your name attached to a faulty product... =) Take your time though, lol, I'm no one to make demands like that anymore, ha

Here's Part 2:
Abyss Mysticism in Your Stories:

and part 5... I mean 3!:
Merits & Flaws:
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PostSubject: Locations and Items   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeWed Oct 03, 2012 6:12 pm

Part 4, the whole entire Abyssal Locations section:
Dark Places:

And part, um... 5:
In-Character Research Aides:
So, yeah valis/Bruno, when you get a chance, I read what you wrote about the Gospel of Laodice, but I didn't quite get it either, and I've been putting off asking you to explain it, or point me in the right direction at least. =) So, yeah, heh, when you get a chance, I know you've been busy too. Meanwhile, I had an idea that I tried on that exact book to make it look more CWoD-style, and it looked really nice--before the file got corrupt. I'm going to try and do it again.

Beyond that, what do we think? I basically edited and formatted MOST of the chapter. Now it "looks" like something, but if you read it I think it still offers that "Under Construction" feel to it. What about the new idea for the "Abyss and... ...This n' That" sections? I feel it could be shortened by decent chunks here and there and not lose anything relevant for a VtM game. I also think it sounds too clinical and metaknowledgeable, even though I tried to dilute that a bit by attributing the work to "multiple unknown authors."
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeThu Oct 04, 2012 1:56 am

Ok this is my feedback. It’s my thoughts about it, but not necessarily
the way to go though, that’s debatable – just my opinion on how it would work
the best.

Regarding part 1.
I really like that it’s not in character, that it works like WW wrote their
stuff – from author to reader, from game producer to storyteller. I really like
it that way, and it’s really well written and a pleasant read! Therefore it strikes
me quite odd that suddenly it switch in the black text to in character and to a
much more advanced text. My opinion is that the Agathe text could be rewritten
into a similar text as the rest so it doesn’t stand out. In no way am I saying
that Agathe’s text is better or worse – just differently written and therefore
I feel it could work better if we make it out of character.

For part 2,
This is cool, I like how you rewritten it and made it a better floating text
than what was in the previous Abyss-versions. I also like the structure, very
easy to read. One thing that I thought about is that all of our suggestions on
how to involve abyss mysticism is pretty much directed to non-Lasombra. What do
you think about one suggestion that suggests that the player(s) falls under the
a powerful abyss mystic’s radar (for something big they’ve accomplished during
the chronicle) and keen on getting them on his team he volunteer to school them
in the Path of Night and Abyss Mysticism.
I agree that the black text probably doesn’t need a full write-up but could
work more as a sum up, to prove that there are many more ways to go about it
than just the ways we have suggested.

I’ve been involved in both part 3 and 4’s construction so there I already got
my thoughts across, and I’m very happy with how they turned out. I think the
black text in part 3 could be written better though, when I wrote it I didn’t
mean for it to be the final text. I’ll probably try to write that a bit better.
Oh and I’m really looking forward to see more Abyssal Locations, it’s one of my
favourite parts of the book.

Part 5, yeah I love everything, but like you said Joshua – The Gospel of
Laodice isn’t obvious. As from what I can tell about the reasons to put it
there, one might as well put the Bible there as well.

With all that said, fucking awesome job everyone! Seeing how this book
progresses is really fun and interesting. How we all put our different bricks
to build the castle, and how we’re all possess different traits and knowledge
which combined makes a kick-ass team! I’m learning so much from this project!
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeThu Oct 04, 2012 3:29 am

Glad you like how it's turning out Sam, I'm happy with the job we've done as well.

Responses:
1. I originally was going to make it an out-of-character text, but as I went through it it became too obvious that it was the opinion of one individual. Because of that, I figured I could turn it into a bunch of notes collected by someone who wanted to present that theory (originally taken from Possessed's post).
Maybe I should go back to the o-o-c style for this one, for the reasons you said...

2. Yeah, I can see that, I'll look at it again with that in mind, probably specify some Lasombra in the other ideas as well. I also like what you said about a closing statement summing up what I left out so far.

3. The Black text is black BECAUSE I don't consider it final text, just to be clear.

4. As for Locations, I remembered I said I'd write Zadkiel's Well and Caridad's Garden, so I'll probably do that soon. I'm trying to decide if I should put them "under" the Mexico City section, like, maybe as a side-bar? Or if I should go ahead and put them in as separate entries? So far I'm leaning towards the latter, myself.

5. This is also the section where we would put the vial-of-dust-from-the-shores-of-the-primordial-abyss artifact/item thingy, isn't it? So that was my idea, I could write that... hmm, I could use some details from the Umbral theories Agathe has posted, that could be interesting.... =)
Also, Agathe mentions the road of Heaven and all that shit alot, lol. =) Maybe he can explain what we are missing?

Again, glad you like the way things look so far Sam, thanks a lot--to you and everybody else that helped in any way! I'm glad that I have so much awesome stuff to keep organizing. Right now I'm currently incorporating your recent work, Sam, on Known and Speculated Abyss mystics, into the Guide. After that Idk, maybe that super sloppy Chapter 3?
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeMon Dec 17, 2012 2:23 pm

@Gattison

Okay, now I see that you mentioned the Gospel of Laodice section needed a retooling, so I'll try to make some sense out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeMon Dec 17, 2012 11:26 pm

I thought I mentioned this already, but I guess I forgot, so:

I re-re-read The Gospel of Laodice section by valis and I have once again changed my vote. I now say we should keep it.

I say this because it highlights a not-so-obvious form of darkness that could very well form a vital component of Abyss Mysticism.

The actual connection, or "use" this will be to most Abyss Mysticas remains unclear, but like the Psychologist Character template we have, I feel like this begins to cover the other aspects of Abyss Mysticism that are not obvious, as in beyond simple shadows. Keep in mind the Abyss Specialty in occult not only gives one a bonus on darkness/obtenebration related things, but also on rituals and subjects that involve death, destruction and other things normally under the scope of a god of darkness (bad/evil things).

I don't think you would need much to spruce it up, valis, but some more direct ways in which Abyss mystics would concern themselves with the book, wouldn't hurt.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2012 8:52 pm

And then I wrote this:

it is the description for the other occult book I made up, I Nomi di Ombre e Ombre,
Spoiler:
I tried to do a few things here, and not sure if I pulled it off or not. I may have been to light-handed in areas. I wanted to imply that the Dark age cabal of mystics could have gotten their copy from the Angellis Ater, ST's decision. I also wanted to imply that rather than offering control over dark beings by invoking their true names, as is most commonly believed by Abyss mystics, these books themselves actually have the power. The lists of the being's names are not to summon or entice them, but to bind them. The books serve as "rap sheets" for known demons that have been bound by having ALL of their True/Names written down. The more books made, the stronger the seals on the imprisoned beings, but the more people learn their many names, the weaker the power in those names become, thus the weaker their bindings become.

Hmm, guess I'll revisit this later and add some extra details to it.
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2012 10:55 am

Ok first of all, since the author is spoken about is active in the Dark Ages you might wanna consider using the term cainite instead of kindred. Most abyss mystics belong to the Sabbat, so the more reason to use the term cainite before kindred.
It is a little bit unclear to me if the author was part of this cabal group of abyss mystics, and did he write it but they "book bound" it? May I suggest that you skip the cabal group and instead make it clear that it was the Angellis Ater. Remember that we debated the Black Angels before? I think we were pretty certain that they were abyss mystics. So I suggest that instead of making a unknown cabal group that you will never speak about again, you use the Angellis Ater who fits the glove very well and is already out there.
Also the Cardinal who got her hands on a copy, I don't really understand why you point at the Mediterranean Lasombra as the source. Is there a thought behind that? If you wanna play around with Infernalism, maybe you can add a related reason rumour to how the Cardinal got her copy. Maybe they say she stole it from one of the many plunder treasures chambers that belonged to the Society of Leopold. Maybe it was recovered in the lair of a now deseased disobedient cainite. Something that may point that it belonged to a infernalist. Just a thought.
Over all I really like the idea of this book, it's really cool. It's very different and quite a unique idea. I really like that it suggests that Abyss Mysticism is an apple who doesn't fall far from the infernalist tree. Maybe you could add something about that the Inquistion would probably consider a owned copy a proof of demonic practice and that's why it's quite hard to track down, no one wants to admit they've seen a copy/ even less owns one.

That's just what pops up in my head when I read it, do what you will with my ideas ofc, feel free to ignore them if it fucks with your original vision Smile
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PostSubject: Re: CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling   CHAPTER 4 - Casting Shadows: Storytelling Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2012 5:35 pm

List time!

1. You're right, I do that alot. Fixed it. =)

2. It should be unclear if the author was part of the cabal of mystics. And yes, he wrote it, but they copied it and circulated it. Making it unclear if he was a part of the cabal means there were three parties possibly involved in the writing of this book: Carrionis, the cabal and the Angellis Ater (who may or may not have been). The ST could come up with all sorts of twists this way, by saying Carrionis was an infernalist and/or Angellis Ater who purposely gave the book to the innocent cabal to be spread among mystics; or by saying that Carrionis and the cabal were both innocent of infernalism, but the Angellis ater tricked them. Or by saying that Carrionis actually formed the cabal, and they were all Angellis Ater. It would all depend on how the ST wants to balance Abyss Mysticism with Infernalism in their Story.

3. I intentionally avoided labeling it as definitely an Angellis Ater product because I didn't want to label the book itself as definitely infernal, I wanted the book to be borderline, and mostly up to the ST on how they want to use it.

4. I do not believe all Angellis Ater are Abyss mystics, no. I do believe there is a high probability that Angellis Ater would pursue Abyss Mysticism if they found out about it because they would hope the infernal rumors about it are true. Infernalists have no reason to shy away from Abyss Mysticism. I believe what the Angellis Ater actually do lies more along the lines of Dark Thaumaturgy, with the occasional similarity to Abyss Mysticism because of their familiarity with darkness--which is the main reason they joined with the Baali n the first place, isn't it? But making Angellis Ater and Abyss Mysticism synonymous? I would have to disagree with you. =(

5. The purpose of the mysterious cabal is to provide a bit of a cushion between the infernalists and the actual book. This way an ST could say that Yes, the cabal was infernal, or actually WAS the Angellis Ater, so the book will doom the player, or No, the cabal wasn't infernal, so the book can teach you Abyss-ism. The ST could also say it's a trap intended to lure Abyss mystics into infernalism. All those scenarios are possible now since I didn't define them.

6. Okay, you caught me, the Cardinal is supposed to be the Cardinal of Maghreb I made (who is Mediterranean and has an Occult Library, and whom I've also mentioned as active during the 18th Century), and the reference to Mediterranean Lasombra was supposed to be to Lasombra pirates, like Esperanza Lucifer or other possibly infernal Lasombra pirates. Iirc, alot of Lasombra pirates and the Dark Magister were very active in the Mediterranean, weren't they? I figured that be an easy wayconnect the dots to a character who could actually have the book for someone to steal/find/return/whatever.

7. I could definitely change the source of the Cardinal's copy, if you think that would help, and having something to do with the Society of the Leopold would be a really good idea, I think.

8. I also like your idea about mentioning how the Sabbat Inquisition views the book, that's a good idea, too.

9. So, let me try to update this book's write-up a bit and see if I can't make it more appealing. Also, what do you say now that I explained everything? Obviously the fact that I needed to explain it all means I should make it more clear, and expand the description just a bit more at least.

10. Finally, what about how the book works? Did you pick up on all the subtle hints about how using the book will basically release titanic shadow-demons on the universe?
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